New Portobello High School - PPAG win legal appeal

[Betty Windsor]

Geoff -Re consultation. Is the website you mention the official place for parents to put in their comments? If so who wrote the pros and cons? There appear to be a lot of assumptions being made. Were these timescales etc taken directly from the council officials or are PFANS making it up to suit their own agenda?
Did the parent councils set this website up? I haven't heard from the school or the parent council about this and as comments need to be in by end of next week I wonder how they plan to let people know about?
Many parents I have spoken to do not feel there has been any consultation since the very emphatic ruling by Scotland's highest court that to build on the park would be illegal. Not all parents support the council's attempted illegal land grab of the park.
I also believe this issue is so important, there should be consultation in the wider community.

[seanie]

No, the website isn't the official place for parents to put their comments, but all comments will be passed on to the Council. I wrote the pros and cons, partly based on information available, partly based on my own knowledge and experience. Having discussed the issues with Council officials, and having shown them my list of pros and cons, I have to say we were pretty much in agreement, although there have been a few developments since that mean not all the options proposed are covered. However, the Council have produced summaries for all the options now on the table.

The Parent Councils didn't set up the web-site and, as far as I'm aware are taking different approaches to providing feedback. However, given the tight timescales, the web-site is there to be used by parents should they so wish, whatever proposal they favour.

As to wider Community Consultation, that should happen in due course. For now, the Council are attempting to get an initial idea of the feelings of the school communities on the respective options.

[portygeoff]

Geoff -Re consultation. Is the website you mention the official place for parents to put in their comments? If so who wrote the pros and cons? There appear to be a lot of assumptions being made. Were these timescales etc taken directly from the council officials or are PFANS making it up to suit their own agenda?
Did the parent councils set this website up? I haven't heard from the school or the parent council about this and as comments need to be in by end of next week I wonder how they plan to let people know about?
Many parents I have spoken to do not feel there has been any consultation since the very emphatic ruling by Scotland's highest court that to build on the park would be illegal. Not all parents support the council's attempted illegal land grab of the park.
I also believe this issue is so important, there should be consultation in the wider community.

Aye Betty, we know what your view of the wider community is. I think that as the park was purchased for the people of Portobello it should be decided by the people of Portobello. Oops, that's just taken a large chunk of your support out, never mind I am sure that all those living near the park will keep the numbers up.

Nice to see you back, you have been quiet this past couple of days; gonna lets us know what your little planning group has been up to.

[David Robertson]

Geoff -Re consultation. Is the website you mention the official place for parents to put in their comments? If so who wrote the pros and cons? There appear to be a lot of assumptions being made. Were these timescales etc taken directly from the council officials or are PFANS making it up to suit their own agenda?
Did the parent councils set this website up? I haven't heard from the school or the parent council about this and as comments need to be in by end of next week I wonder how they plan to let people know about?
Many parents I have spoken to do not feel there has been any consultation since the very emphatic ruling by Scotland's highest court that to build on the park would be illegal. Not all parents support the council's attempted illegal land grab of the park.
I also believe this issue is so important, there should be consultation in the wider community.

Aye Betty, we know what your view of the wider community is. I think that as the park was purchased for the people of Portobello it should be decided by the people of Portobello. Oops, that's just taken a large chunk of your support out, never mind I am sure that all those living near the park will keep the numbers up.

Nice to see you back, you have been quiet this past couple of days; gonna lets us know what your little planning group has been up to.

Spot on Porty Geoff difficult to see how something paid for could be illegally grabbed - well on this planet anyway.

As for letting you know not much chance of the keyboard hideaways doing that !

[Bob Jefferson]

A worrying development over on the PPAG Facebook Page. Sadly, there will always be the occasional dog suicide but I had no idea of the scale of the problem. This is certainly their strongest argument yet for not accepting the Council's offer of a new park and we should now seriously re-consider.

I think it's nonsense to make the Figgate Park larger. It's a lovely park, but also provides a danger to dogs (several have died in the pond since the walkway... it's easy for a dog to leap in off the walkway, but almost impossible to get out.)

[Bob0131]

Perhaps we will see a call for dog swimming lessons at Porty baths to help reduce the canine fatalities. So what if it renders the pool unusable for children and other human lifeforms - DOGS DIE IN FIGGY POND!

[Makaveli]

I have never seen a more compelling argument for the school to not be build on Porty Park than dog suicide.

Maybe we have all been wrong all along and need to rethink our options - how many dogs have to kill themsleves before we do the right thing???!!!

[wangi]

I know this is frivolous (although not for those who have unfortunately lost a dog) but in the circumstance that part of the existing PHS site is turned into a new park then it would surely improve this situation? There would be a new park, without dangerous boardwalk, available for the exercise of dogs. It would not be an extension of Figgate Park - the houses of Hamilton Drive are between the two!

[SoupDragon]

Is there any concrete evidence for the dog deaths in Figgate Park?

Someone wouldn't just make that up, would they?

Though maybe if the dogs were on a lead they wouldn't leap into the pond.
Is there a case for publicising that dogs should be kept on a tight lead especially on the walkway

[Epykat]

On the contrary - it's an absolute MUST that the school has to now go on the Figgy. Dogs are being WALKED there It must therefore be a dogs' toilet and that is the main criteria for building apparently. In fact, there are so many dogs' toilets in Porty that we could have a campus on each space. Better still, go the whole way and exterminate the lot of them in the Figgy Pond. Leaves the door wide open for the important members of the community

[seanie]

You must be pleased with the Council's twin track approach though?

It fits neatly with your own twin-track approach to the issue.

I've said from the beginning that I'm in support of the building of the High School (not schools) on the Park.

I don't want the school to go on the golfie, I've said that from the beginning...

[Bob0131]

I'm aghast that the owners of the "several" dead dogs did not care enough about their canine companions to dive into the pond and rescue them. Or perhaps the "reel me in master" function on their extendable leads were faulty, have Flexi recalled these products? Is there such a thing as a dog lifebelt?

[Pal of Porty]

This should fix the problem:



Simples.

[Franck]

I've got two dugs,both are fond of chasing the ducks in the figgie pond, neither are deed because of it.Never heard of a dug drowning in the pond in my entire puff.

[lg1726]

Likewise, have two dog, one a rescue and very neurotic, on doggy prozac, but has not shown any signs of topping herself of the board-walk. I have to say, this is taking the objections to whole new level!!!

[Epykat]

This is going to sound mental:

Mr Wightman may be one of those people, when presented with new evidence, revaluates and considers the potential impact of that evidence. Having learned more about the issue, his opinion may start to evolve, it could even end up with him changing his mind.

Thanks Sean, but as Stephen points out above........I may be one of those people.

[seanie]

Very few people have the ability to change their mind all the way back to the beginning again.

In fact, you may be unique in that.

[gillian]

Sorry I seem to have lost the plot again. At what point has it been suggested that the Figgy be made bigger?

[Porty]

Should I tell my dog suicide story again? It happened in the figgy.
L

[Bob Jefferson]

Yes, do tell. Meanwhile...

[Bob0131]

What is this? Some sort of deviant version of Lassie?

[Betty Windsor]

No, the website isn't the official place for parents to put their comments...

Thanks for letting me know. I appreciate it.

[little miss moffat]

Having discussed the issues with Council officials, and having shown them my list of pros and cons, I have to say we were pretty much in agreement......

given the tight timescales, the web-site is there to be used by parents should they so wish, whatever proposal they favour.

"Should they so wish"....... the choice is theirs. Anyone who wishes to take part has the opportunity to object to the proposals. Anyone who doesn't want to take part can just ignore the poll.

From what I can see, it's all a matter of choice. Choose whether to take part in the poll or not. Choose whether to agree or disagree with the proposals. What seems to be the problem with the poll?

The council have held discussions with Seanie re the contents. They do not appear to have a problem with the on-line poll.
Yet, if I am reading this correctly, you appear to have a problem with the poll - are people not allowed choices any more?

[seanie]

I can perhaps offer some insight by way of example.

Back during the pre-planning consultation on the Hogh School, Towerbank surveyed parents & carers on the proposals. It was an entirely neutral and unbiased survey; you simply had to rate the proposals on a scale 0-10, comment on what you did or didn't like, and add any other comments. All responses, even anonymous ones, were handed on to the Council.

However, whilst a response from the School Council based on the outcomes of the survey was accepted as a response to the consultation, all the individual responses and comments were discounted. PPAG and (then Cllr) Stephen Hawkins had lobbied hard to have them excluded on the basis that the survey was 'not official'.

[little miss moffat]

Porty High Update
November 1st, 2012 | Author: keziadugdale
Every week, the Parliament has something called General Questions and it’s usually the 20 mins before First Minister’s Questions. It works on a sort of ballot or raffle system in the sense that you can only table a question if your name is pulled out of the hat. This week was my lucky week and I chose to ask the Government about the future of Portobello High School. The detail of the exchange is below.

I also have a number of Parliamentary Questions in the system and have letters into Government Ministers awaiting a response. Once I have received responses, which should be in the next couple of days, I will seek to contact everyone who has been in touch about Portobello High School with a more fullsome report of what I’ve been doing recently to make the school on the park a reality as soon as possible. If you’d like a copy of that update and haven’t been in touch already, sign up here.

Portobello High School

3. Kezia Dugdale (Lothian) (Lab): To ask the Scottish Government whether it has had discussions with the City of Edinburgh Council regarding the future of Portobello high school. (S4O-01418)

The Minister for Local Government and Planning (Derek Mackay): The Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Employment and Sustainable Growth and I have offered to meet council representatives to discuss possible options, work through next steps and consider what appropriate support the Scottish Government can provide to assist the City of Edinburgh Council to fulfil its responsibilities.

Kezia Dugdale: Will the minister clarify whether he is looking at the power to advance wellbeing in those discussions? Can he assure my constituents, who have a deep sense of anger and disappointment that the school has yet again been delayed, that the Government will do everything that it can to see the new Portobello high school built on the park as soon as possible?

Derek Mackay: I thank the member for the constructive tone in which she asked the question. The SNP Government is outcome focused. We will work to try to deliver the aspirations of the City of Edinburgh Council, and its preferred site is indeed the park. The problem has come about because of a legal determination. We will work through the options.

The exploratory consultation on the community empowerment and renewal bill covers the issue of common good land, but it might not be timeous enough to give rise to a solution to this particular issue.

I guarantee that the Government will be proactive and take a constructive approach to the meeting with the City of Edinburgh Council. I am informed that it has been scheduled for 13 November. I will be happy to update the member on the outcome of those discussions.

[little miss moffat]

I can perhaps offer some insight by way of example.

Back during the pre-planning consultation on the Hogh School, Towerbank surveyed parents & carers on the proposals. It was an entirely neutral and unbiased survey; you simply had to rate the proposals on a scale 0-10, comment on what you did or didn't like, and add any other comments. All responses, even anonymous ones, were handed on to the Council.

However, whilst a response from the School Council based on the outcomes of the survey was accepted as a response to the consultation, all the individual responses and comments were discounted. PPAG and (then Cllr) Stephen Hawkins had lobbied hard to have them excluded on the basis that the survey was 'not official'.

Wow.....that stinks! So would people actually be better to email the various Councillors with their views to the proposed site options?

[seanie]

No. This isn't a formal consultation, they're looking for informal feedback, and given the tight timescales anything that makes that easier helps.

[fresian]

Perhaps the old school building could be retained, with a kind of roof garden/park built on the roof. This could then be separated into places where dogs can excercise, dog loos could be provided as well, any depressed or bipolar dogs could simply jump off the roof if life was getting to be unbearable

[Porty]

Yes, do tell.

When I was about 9 I had the awful experience of liviing next door to a gorgeous springer spaniel that took its own life. More than 30 years later I can barely bring myself to relate the story.

The dog, who will remain nameless in case the owner posts here, was a very intelligent animal and just like some very intelligent people had a capacity or predilection for madness, as it turned out, suicide.

Like most dogs this one loved going for a walk and detested being fettered by a leash. As he was an intelligent animal, the owner rarely felt the need to use a leash when walking the dog. On the fateful day the dog pitched up for his usual walk with the leash in its mouth and refused to cross the threshold until the owner had put its lead on. The owner thought this was a bit strange but was used to a slight mad streak so carried on. Shortly after beginning the walk the dog went missing in the Figgate Park, the owner called its name over and over and grew increasingly concerned. After about half an hour he encountered the dog hanging from a spike in a fence. He had presumably jumped up hooking himself by the neck.

Whilst the above would perhaps suggest suicide it is hardly conclusive, however, later the same day the owners found a plastic bottle of painkillers that had been gnawed and destroyed, most of the contents had been eaten. The dog had tried to overdose.

A truly tragic tail.

The final irony was that a few days after the tragedy the owner was clearing out the dog's basket and under the cushion the dog slept on, he discovered a copy of Goodbye to Love by the Carpenters with a carefully placed paw print.

As you will no doubt know, just a few years later, Karen Carpenter also died in tragic circumstances.

"There are no tomorrows for this heart of mine
Surely time will lose these bitter memories
And I'll find that there is someone to believe in
And to live for something I could live for"

Goodbye to love, indeed.

The story sounds a bit far fetched, that appears not to be the case. The following was published in The Times a couple of years ago.

Dog suicide hot spot 'nonsense'
By Gillian Harris, Scotland Correspondent

"ANIMAL workers have rejected suggestions of a spate of dog “suicides” at a 40ft bridge.

Five dogs have jumped to their deaths in the past six months at the bridge at Overtoun House, Dumbarton, according to locals. The most recent was last weekend when an owner was unable to stop her dog leaping over.
Joyce Stewart, an animal behaviourist, said the deaths were abnormal as dogs were usually able to gauge the heights and depths they could jump. “If they know they are going to die they might go into hiding but I have never heard of them taking their own lives,” she said.

A spokeswoman for the Scottish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals said: “Animals do not commit suicide. (This) shows the need for dog owners to keep their dogs under control. There is perhaps something over the bridge attracting the dogs’ attention.”

The bridge, over a tributary of the Clyde, lies within the grounds of Overtoun House, an A-listed baronial building currently run as a Christian centre. It was the scene of a family tragedy in 1994 when Kevin Moy threw his two-week-old son to his death believing him to be the Antichrist."

[Scoop]

Off topic, or WHAT!!!

[Scoop]

"Sexto. That if my said disponees or their foresaids shall act contrary to any of the reservations, conditions, provisions and declarations herein expressed then this Feu Right and all that may have followed upon the same shall become void and null and the said area or piece of ground hereby disponed shall revert to me or my foresaids in like manner as if this Feu had never been granted."

Forgive me if this has already been covered, but this reads to me like Portobello Park will be returned to the heirs of Sir James Miller if the council try to build a school on it. I'm sure the council will have been in touch with them though.....

[seashell]

Scoop - Abolition of Feudal Tenure Act 2000 extinguished feudal burdens like these, unless preserved (action taken by the feudal superior). So the clause is meaningless.

[Scoop]

Umless it has indeed been preserved. Wonder how we can find out.

[Porty]

Registers of Scotland? It was not preserved. We had that discussion back in 2006.

[seashell]

Scoop - as Porty says, this has been looked into before. For the record, only a tiny percentage of burdens were actually preserved.

But if you want to double check, then that's easy: the Registers of Scotland are all open to the public to consult, and have been since 1617. Just nip along to Meadowbank House, where the staff in the Customer Service Centre will be only too pleased to help you. There is a fee payable for this service, of course. Just tell them you want to search the Sasine Register, for the county of Midlothian.