"Sort it out yourselves" (PPAG win legal appeal)

[Scoop]

Think about your 1972 VW, Epykat. Did VW stick with that same design and spec or have they changed it radically, several times?

I sincerley hope you never have a head on collision in that car, wouldn't it be nice to have an airbag if you did? (and I don't mean Betty in the passenger seat)

Don't even think about it Epy. It's my car and you're not getting it. Keep up, Porty, but take your time doing it. You're missing the details.

[Epykat]

Think about your 1972 VW, Epykat. Did VW stick with that same design and spec or have they changed it radically, several times?

I sincerley hope you never have a head on collision in that car, wouldn't it be nice to have an airbag if you did? (and I don't mean Betty in the passenger seat)

Don't even think about it Epy. It's my car and you're not getting it. Keep up, Porty, but take your time doing it. You're missing the details.

I don't want your poxy car. I'm with Geoff on this one. Now, if you refurbed the car, put better heating and seat belts in it then we might be onto something - at less than the cost of a new one!

[Epykat]

This whole 'debate' is reminding me of an incident I had with my daughter once. She wanted a half pound box of chocolates in Scotmid and I told her she could have a finger of Fudge instead. She shouted and screamed and had a tantrum (which was very embarrassing) so eventually even the Fudge offer was withdrawn and she left the shop kicking and screaming with nothing. She was only four and she'd kind of grown out of it by the time she was an adult.

[commander114]

Perfect Epykat I suspected my 14 y.o.son was here masquerading as an unconvincing adult to have a go.

I like the idea of a refurb as well. If this goes on much longer it may be the only option. I neglected to mention in my sketch idea that the goalposts all move by 2018 as far as I am aware. It was with that thought in mind that I hinted at the green properties required of new builds.

I suggested a modular design for a number of reasons. I can think of other ways that a modular approach could be used in other parts of Portobello to deliver a new school as well. This is a sustainable type of building. It is well suited to building in stages over a prolonged period too. Not withstanding the percentage returns incentive and distortion that Rathbone described, people in construction are discovering that sustainable design concepts return a major competitive advantage. What you get is better quality and environment for those using the school and the costs over the life-time of the building are less.

Is the council prepared for the new EU building directive ? I apologise in advance if you've already taken this into account and it's no doubt been discussed till you are fed up. As of 2020, all new buildings must be energy self-sufficient requiring almost no energy at all. For public buildings like schools, the above objectives will be enforced as early as 2018. Here comes 2013. This bears remembering in these 'discussions'.

It means that the planning process will change or is changing right now. A lot of entrenched ideas will no longer be acceptable for public buildings. Sustainable architecture may well be a requirement in this project. The school plan would need to be energy efficient, delivering climate and thermal comfort using passive energy sources. Highly efficient building services as well as daylight-sensitive building design is involved. This generally means that the learning environment would be better as well.

time is passing....

[Porty]

So what about the other "plenty of alternatives" you mentioned? I hope you weren't bullshitting, you will let down all your disciples from the silent majority.

[Porty]

Porty, I hope you don't live anywhere near the golfie. Are you nobbling Sam with your chocolate biscuits? Chocolate's poisonous to dogs, don't you know? .

Rather tragically, Sam has to poo indoors, having been struck on the temple by a golf ball and now unable to walk. I'm not convinced this improved his school design expertise.

I ran the Commanders input on future building legislation past Sam. He just gave me a knowing look, a wee doggy shrug then his eyes wandered to the biscuit tin. Chocolate is one of his few pleasures.

[rmolehusband]

This whole 'debate' is reminding me of an incident I had with my daughter once. She wanted a half pound box of chocolates in Scotmid and I told her she could have a finger of Fudge instead.

So what you're saying is our children should be forced accept a smaller, inferior and ultimately far less desirable alternative to what they really want or risk ending up with nothing at all? That really does sum up your arguments pretty succinctly.

[Pal of Porty]

......I like this game, it's like Trumps. With Towers. Wait a minute.......

Magic

[commander114]

There really are alternatives around Porky. You’re the guy that flies I think, the flying metaphors ‘n’ all.

Consider this site from a different point of view. There’s an unattractive scar to the north west that could do with improvement. Baileyfield Road is not the greatest through-route in terms of appearance. For the sake of simplicity, picture a couple of modules like those I sketched out previously with courtyards left and right, the assembly block in the middle. Leave the space beneath the structures largely free so as to maintain park space. I’m not suggesting that the entire green area be built on, rather that it be preserved. With a little work the pond and park environment could be greatly improved in terms of visual appeal and safety. You could even indulge your interest in aviation by having a wide chord wing profile - very stylish and inexpensive.



The site offers all of the potential of the previous site I mentioned without greatly affecting the green space or greatly affecting the space at all. The existing school’s site can be preserved to allow playing fields and swimming pool facilities. A pedestrian link to playing fields and parking is more or less there already.

I don’t presume to speak for anyone but myself.

[lg1726]

So is this on the Figgate Park area and if so, what happened to the preservation of green space?

[Pal of Porty]

Here is a picture I took while out on a wee wander around Arthur Seat with Mrs PoP. I think it is a great example of what a modern day school should look like. Note the absence of any highly desirable towers.

[Mark Cameron]

So what you're proposing Commander is to set the school in a park and in closer proximity to houses than the current proposed school appears to be?

If the proposed school was built on stilts so 'preserving' the park would that satisfy PPAG?

Somehow I have my doubts.

[Porty]

The site offers all of the potential of the previous site I mentioned.....

You''re not giving us much hope,In the previous site you mentioned : "All of the potential" = Zero.

(BTW- I'm not sure what you are on about with the aviation references, was it something I said?)

[AndyK]

Surely you would struggle to maintain green space under stilts with no rain or sunlight ? Maybe I'm misunderstanding the design - I've no civil engineering, architecture or indeed horticultural background. I suppose it may work if the stilts were extremely high but then you'd only get sun at certain times of the day and year, though sideways rain shouldn't be a problem. I guess the children could make use of Seanie's jetpack idea from a few days ago to get to the entrance.

And would Figgate Park not attract the same issues with regard to common good ?

I concede that it's easy to knock down someone else's plan B but there are still parameters around which any design must work.

[wangi]

That's a winner commander - I see you'll be needing to CPO and demolish properties on Hamilton Ter, as well as build on an award winning park.

[Pal of Porty]

Let's just remind ourselves that Plan B is a PPAG agenda designed to divert attention from the Park still remaining as a potential option for the new PHS. It's great fun but not going to work.

[Porty]

I've no civil engineering, architecture or indeed horticultural background. .

Don't be too hard on yourself. Can you cut out box shapes and glue them to a Map? That's all you really need in the lala world of the Commander.

[Franck]

There really are alternatives around Porky. You’re the guy that flies I think, the flying metaphors ‘n’ all.

Consider this site from a different point of view. There’s an unattractive scar to the north west that could do with improvement. Baileyfield Road is not the greatest through-route in terms of appearance. For the sake of simplicity, picture a couple of modules like those I sketched out previously with courtyards left and right, the assembly block in the middle. Leave the space beneath the structures largely free so as to maintain park space. I’m not suggesting that the entire green area be built on, rather that it be preserved. With a little work the pond and park environment could be greatly improved in terms of visual appeal and safety. You could even indulge your interest in aviation by having a wide chord wing profile - very stylish and inexpensive.



The site offers all of the potential of the previous site I mentioned without greatly affecting the green space or greatly affecting the space at all. The existing school’s site can be preserved to allow playing fields and swimming pool facilities. A pedestrian link to playing fields and parking is more or less there already.

I don’t presume to speak for anyone but myself.

You either don't know Portobello and it's parks well at all, or at the wind up.

[Porty]

You either don't know Portobello and it's parks well at all, or at the wind up.

I say its a troll, sent behind enemy lines to try and weaken the pro-park momentum by the creation of a nominal but fantastical Plan B.

Many of the signs are there; feels the need to tell us how long he's lived in Porty, claims to be of the same mindset as the silent majority (how does he know?) and then there's the bullying references. It's the standard profile for lord Haw Haw. The killer clue being the ignorance of any request for substantive information.It's straight out of the PPAG manual.
Quite clever tho' and the wind ups ain't bad either.

[portygeoff]

Have to say I agree its all a wind up, and does relate to the PPAG plan to distract from the issue. Even the use of Golfie is something that is being used to imply that the school is being put on the golf course, heard it with mine own flappers. Will use my energies elsewhere to get the school built on the park unless serious alternatives that a have a realistic chance of being implemented are suggested.

[Epykat]

This whole 'debate' is reminding me of an incident I had with my daughter once. She wanted a half pound box of chocolates in Scotmid and I told her she could have a finger of Fudge instead.

So what you're saying is our children should be forced accept a smaller, inferior and ultimately far less desirable alternative to what they really want or risk ending up with nothing at all? That really does sum up your arguments pretty succinctly.

What I’m saying is that she was overruled by somebody with more authority than her who then offered an alternative. She also started hacking off people not directly involved in the dispute by shouting and screaming in the hope that the more noise she made the more likely she was to get her own way. By refusing to even consider the alternative which was, in her opinion, a lesser option but was however the only offer on the table, she ended up with nothing. She could of course have appealed the decision with her Dad but the delay was unacceptable to her and she wanted what she wanted NOW . There was also the chance that the appeal would be unsuccessful. She was perhaps aware that, going on previous experiences of a similar nature, ultimately the decision wasn't hers anyway and never would be so she could make as much fuss as she liked but the people with the money were going to have the final say regardless.

The life lesson she learned was, listen to what’s being offered and don’t expect to get what you want all the time however much you stamp your feet and think you deserve it.

[gillian]

This whole 'debate' is reminding me of an incident I had with my daughter once. She wanted a half pound box of chocolates in Scotmid and I told her she could have a finger of Fudge instead. She shouted and screamed and had a tantrum (which was very embarrassing) so eventually even the Fudge offer was withdrawn and she left the shop kicking and screaming with nothing. She was only four and she'd kind of grown out of it by the time she was an adult.

The problem with this analogy is that the half pound of chocolates, in this case, is still on the shelf. It may yet end up at the checkout.

[commander114]

Come on Commander, don't get in a flap and stall any longer, what land do you have in mind. This has been a sorry tail, a long haul and a real drag, and we can't wing it with our childrens' education any longer no matter what the spoilers say. Despite its roll, the current school is a dive, not enough room for even a pitch. It's getting beyond a yoke.

I'm so sorry, my apologies. The quote was not from Porty but from rmolehusband.

[Epykat]

Have to say I agree its all a wind up, and does relate to the PPAG plan to distract from the issue. Even the use of Golfie is something that is being used to imply that the school is being put on the golf course, heard it with mine own flappers. Will use my energies elsewhere to get the school built on the park unless serious alternatives that a have a realistic chance of being implemented are suggested.

Which is what the Talkporty Mafia want you to believe but actually you're falling into the arrogant assumption of 'everybody's in PPAG' trap. Do you seriously think we sit somewhere in secret coming up with ploys to 'distract' you? What are we 'distracting' you from? Are you scared that maybe there are other people out there who would prefer a viable Plan B to your Plan A? That just smacks of the usual smugness that we've come to expect from some people and does you no favours in the wider community. I really would like to think that most supporters of the school are mature, sensible, reasonable people but when you come out with statements like that you just make yourself look and sound as bad as the worst hardcore park whinger on here which I was kind of hoping you weren't.

Where is your realistic alternative to Plan A? Apart from "we don't need a Plan B because we're going to get a school on the site we want" which frankly is another arrogant assumption, we have yet to hear any other suggestions from any of you.

Just for your info - and sorry to go back to the 70's..... - but when we (by we I mean myself, my husband, his friends, my friends, their siblings and my siblings) were growing up, the golfie was the golfie, or the top of the golfie. We never called it, and never heard it called, Portobello Park. Now, if you think that's a wind up then carry on but please don't expect us to change the name to suit you.

[Epykat]

This whole 'debate' is reminding me of an incident I had with my daughter once. She wanted a half pound box of chocolates in Scotmid and I told her she could have a finger of Fudge instead. She shouted and screamed and had a tantrum (which was very embarrassing) so eventually even the Fudge offer was withdrawn and she left the shop kicking and screaming with nothing. She was only four and she'd kind of grown out of it by the time she was an adult.

The problem with this analogy is that the half pound of chocolates, in this case, is still on the shelf. It may yet end up at the checkout.

It may well Rosa, but then again, it may not. So it might be the Fudge or nothing.

[Pal of Porty]

I must admit I have always referred to the whole area (pitches included) as the 'Golfie'. Clearly I was wrong but that is what many of us used to call it when we were at school.

[Epykat]

I must admit I have always referred to the whole area (pitches included) as the 'Golfie'. Clearly I was wrong but that is what many of us used to call it when we were at school.

Thank you POP.

[commander114]

[quote="Pal of Porty"]Here is a picture I took while out on a wee wander around Arthur Seat with Mrs PoP. I think it is a great example of what a modern day school should look like. Note the absence of any highly desirable towers.

PoP, I agree with you entirely. This is a great design, low-rise and shrouded in trees but this type of design is not popular around here.

[Epykat]

I wouldn't say the tower was highly desirable in an ideal world POP and I agree, this design would look great among the mature Cherry trees on the current site. But would it fit?

[Porty]

Which is what the Talkporty Mafia want you to believe but actually you're falling into the arrogant assumption of 'everybody's in PPAG' trap. Do you seriously think we sit somewhere in secret coming up with ploys to 'distract' you? .

Who is "we"?

[rmolehusband]

This whole 'debate' is reminding me of an incident I had with my daughter once. She wanted a half pound box of chocolates in Scotmid and I told her she could have a finger of Fudge instead.

So what you're saying is our children should be forced accept a smaller, inferior and ultimately far less desirable alternative to what they really want or risk ending up with nothing at all? That really does sum up your arguments pretty succinctly.

What I’m saying is that she was overruled by somebody with more authority than her who then offered an alternative.

This is where your analogy falls down. Your decision to refuse your daughter, offer an alternative and ignore tantrums was sound parenting, but (and I mean this in the nicest way) as a parent you are in the position a dictator. We, on the other hand, live in a democracy. If we (as a community, city, country, or the like) collectively want something then there is nobody with "more authority". The council and the government answer to us, not the other way round.*

The life lesson she learned was, listen to what’s being offered and don’t expect to get what you want all the time however much you stamp your feet and think you deserve it.

Well that could apply to all points of view in this, couldn't it?

However, I don't expect that you would want to daughter to blindly accept authority though, do you? I imagine you'd try to explain why the chocolates weren't an option in this case, so that ultimately she would learn more than simply to accept life's many disappointments with a complaint shrug of the shoulders. (Is Brave New World still on the English syllabus)?

I've yet to hear a good reason why the school can't be built on the park as agreed. As far as I can see, the only possible good reason there could be would be that there isn't democratic support for the idea. If more people want the park than the school, so be it, but I think we both know that is not the case.

You feel that we can have both. that we could have an suitable school and keep the park. I disagree. While you clearly know what is best for your child, you are just a tiny (equal) voice in determining what is best for all the other children of Porty (the place, not the person). You're welcome to try and convince me with your arguments, I do read them, but I'm certainly not going to choose a support a second rate option based on an empty threat that if I don't choose it, I'll get nothing.

*obviously we reach a point where we hit the moral authority of a person's rights. However I trust we are not going done the route of arguing that building on the park will violate anyone's human rights.

[Porty]

I must admit I have always referred to the whole area (pitches included) as the 'Golfie'. Clearly I was wrong but that is what many of us used to call it when we were at school.

Thank you POP.

Back in the day when Sam (the spaniel) could still walk, I tried a little experiment: Each day for about a week I would suggest to him that we went to the Golfie- he was completely indifferent, almost no reaction. I woudl wait about 10 minutes and then suggest we go to the park. Honest, no kidding, he would go al Zebeddee.

Point is; just because you know a lot of people who are mistaken, it doesn't make it right. Not everyone thinks the same as you.In fact these days its almost noone.

[Epykat]

Which is what the Talkporty Mafia want you to believe but actually you're falling into the arrogant assumption of 'everybody's in PPAG' trap. Do you seriously think we sit somewhere in secret coming up with ploys to 'distract' you? .

Who is "we"?

We are the people who have attempted Plan B - there are two, maybe three or four or five of us.

[Betty Windsor]

I must admit I have always referred to the whole area (pitches included) as the 'Golfie'. Clearly I was wrong but that is what many of us used to call it when we were at school.

No more "wrong" than calling Abercorn park the Daisy park.

Most local people still call it the Golfie and indeed only got to know its proper name when the council attempted to appropriate it.

[rmolehusband]

Here's another child related analogy for you.

Some kids have a toy. It belongs to all of them, but sits in the corner of the shed, generally ignored and rarely played with, until one of the kids has a bright idea, digs it out, and starts changing it into a new toy. Lots of the kids love this new toy, but sadly one spoilt little brat has a tantrum declaring that it should be left exactly where it is, as even though he never plays with it himself, he likes it that way. When asked about the other kids, he says he doesn't care about them, but says they can have a finger of f**king fudge instead if they're really that upset about it.