"Sort it out yourselves" (PPAG win legal appeal)

[Grunk]

admin: thread split from New Portobello High School - PPAG win legal appeal.

Can I graze livestock on common good land?

[seanie]

Do lions and tigers count as livestock?

[Sceptic]

Rentagob and co's ego will know no bounds, today Portobello High School, tomorrow, Sainsbury's, next month, the world! Not only have they condemned the pupils and staff who are at porobello, also Boroughmuir and all the other schools who were in the next tranche of school development. Always remember, we have long memories, you will not be forgotten


"Vengence is mine saith the Lord, I will repay!"

[fresian]

Grunk,

Yes I believe you can, and unlike dogs, you are not required to clean up after them. so feel free to parade your oxen in the park.

[Bob Jefferson]

Viridor might be interested?

[lg1726]

Yep - if there were to be a dispose and build strategy, better it be a school than flats/houses and like you and I fresian, I'm sure given the recent past, many others will feel the same way about such a commercial alternative! Or how about a superstore!!

[Snow White]

Sainsbury's gets my vote Ig!

[lg1726]

Yea with a skateboard facility thrown in for good measure!!!

[Bob Jefferson]

And a small lake for jetskis.

[lg1726]

Get a bloody sight more use with all this on it than we see now!!

[fresian]

Still reckon a travellers site would be a good addition to the area, You know, social inclusion and all that. The rules say that the council can't build on the site, there is nothing to say that they can't give permission for someone to park a caravan on it. Reckon the proposed half way house for offenders which was proposed opposite at the crossroads should be given the go ahead as well.

[Pal of Porty]

Finally, would PPAG have the resources to pay for a defence of an appeal to the SC?

They would sell their kidney's if they had to!

[Epykat]

PPAG, Epykat, The Connellys's, Cairns and Hawkins are content to destroy or remove Portobello High School from the heart of our community. We can't let them win. The social cost is too high a a price to pay for future generations.

Why not go the whole derogatory hog and call me 'Scott'? You really have to get over yourself Stephen. That whole statement would be funny if it weren't quite so desperate. You know me, you know that what you've written is a lot of crap and, if anybody is to be unforgiven by anybody else for spouting shite it will be you.

[rmolehusband]

Come on Commander, don't get in a flap and stall any longer, what land do you have in mind. This has been a sorry tail, a long haul and a real drag, and we can't wing it with our childrens' education any longer no matter what the spoilers say. Despite its roll, the current school is a dive, not enough room for even a pitch. It's getting beyond a yoke.

[rmolehusband]

Why not go the whole derogatory hog and call me 'Scott'?

Is it now considered derogatory to refer to someone by their surname?

if anybody is to be unforgiven by anybody else for spouting shite it will be you.

Time will tell on that one.

[Porty]

Epykat

I assure you It wasn't meant to be funny. You and the above named are content to destroy or remove Portobello High School from the heart of our community - it is a matter of fact and widely recognised to be the truth, you and your ilk have no viable solution that will save PHS. No shite.

Allow me to add the caveat; it is not up to "the ilk" to come up with a soultion. You are simply the ones that stood in the way. I'm not sure whether it's selfishness, ignorance or a combination of the two but it is the truth and I repeat is widely recognised amongst our community.

[Scoop]

Come on Commander, don't get in a flap and stall any longer

People can't jump just because it suits you. Oh, does that sound familiar?

[Scoop]

Why bother with stilts? Just attach skyhooks to the school and give the kids jetpacks.

Crisis over everybody. It's all sorted.

Ah Seanie, you never fail to disappoint.

[seanie]

I would respond in more detail, but life's too short to respond to each and every bat-shit insane idea that someone comes up with.

[Scoop]

I would respond in more detail, but life's too short to respond to each and every bat-shit insane idea that someone comes up with.

End result is the same. You don't put any of your own ideas forward.

[brian]

Anybody should be entitled to comment about any subject raised, that is the purpose of the forum. I just feel that ridiculing people's suggestions will not benefit anybody. I too want a new School as soon as possible, I am an ex pupil, I have a son at the school and a son at Duddingston Primary. All that I am suggesting is that it is made welcoming for people to offer alternative suggestions ( should they be required ).

[seanie]

Anybody should be entitled to comment about any subject raised, that is the purpose of the forum. I just feel that ridiculing people's suggestions will not benefit anybody. I too want a new School as soon as possible, I am an ex pupil, I have a son at the school and a son at Duddingston Primary. All that I am suggesting is that it is made welcoming for people to offer alternative suggestions ( should they be required ).

If people should be entitled to comment about any subject raised, that also means people should be entitled to comment about other peoples' commenst on any subject raised. That's how the whole 'entitled to comment' concept works.

But public discourse is not enhanced if we pretend, out of politeness, that silly suggestions are not actually silly suggestions.

[brian]

With that I agree wholeheartedly , it is a major problem , but even with the pursuance of a legal route, there still has to be a plan B, so opening the door to as many contributors as possible is an essential.

[seanie]

But fantasy Plan Bs are merely a distraction, and don't help at all. They give false hope and don't move the debate on.

In terms of site options, 15 were explored back in 2006. Most were not remotely viable then and it's unlikely to be much different now, although they can be looked at again. I've given my take on the alternatives above. I may well be missing something, but when I try to go through the alternatives none seem very attractive, and precious few are even deliverable.

[brian]

If you have no intention of considering a contingency plan, I don't understand why you are on the forum. If it turns out that Porty Park is not possible, we still need a new school.

[seanie]

I've gone to some lengths to outline contingency options above.

Are you hard of reading?

[brian]

Could you please explain your idea of the the difference between a "fantasy plan B " and a contingency plan ?, I'm not being awkward, I'm simply trying to understand you.

[seanie]

Building a 3-4 storey school,"conference, research, sport or a visitor centre or something" on 10m stilts over the Freightliner terminal and East Coast main line is not, in any sense a 'contingency plan'. Contingency plans have to be constrained by some sense of reality (financial, legal, regulatory, practical etc.) otherwise they're not contingency plans. They're fantasy.

For example, whilst the technology certainly exists to create a new PHS in geo-stationary orbit above the the earth, the costs involved in building such a facility, and the maintenance costs, would be prohibitive. I imagine the Travel Plan would be quite a challenge too. So a satellite PHS, whilst not technically impossible, is such a an unlikely option that it would not be a 'contingency plan' in any sensible reading of the term. It would be a 'fantasy Plan B'.

Can you begin to recognise the distinction?

If so we can begin to discuss 'contingency plans' on their actual merits , as opposed to simply letting utter nonsense pass without comment.

[seanie]

Obviously there's spectrum ranging from the reasonable to the deranged, but surely simply positing an 'contingency plan' does't actually make it an actual contingency plan?

[brian]

Prior to posting tonight, several friends had expressed their reluctance to post on this forum for fear of being ridiculed by the responses, after your response to post 6, I fully understand their concerns, with your unquestionable knowledge of everything, you will no doubt be able to sort everything out without any assistance from anybody else.

[seanie]

If you're actually interested in the issue, what options exist and how to resolve it, then engage with it. All you've done so far is whine about the tone of other people's comments, without offering any substantive comment at all.

What contingency plans can you think of? What do you disagree with in the options I examined above?

That could lead to a constructive debate.

[brian]

I am extremely interested in the issue and I' m not aware of having " whined " about anything. I have merely suggested that you could be more welcoming to new contributors. your responses are clearly antagonistic, so I will make my proposals to the people at the Town Hall, hopefully they will be more tolerant.

[seanie]

Again you choose not to make any substantive comments on the central issue; replacing PHS.

[Scoop]

Portobello Park was chosen for a good reason. It's well located in catchment, had good accessibility, avoids the cost and disruption of a decant and at 5.6Ha is large enough to accommodate all the facilities required by the school, including two all-weather pitches.

There are NO quick or easy alternatives for locating the school. It took 5 years from selecting Portobello Park as a site, to the point where a contractor was ready to be appointed and the legal challenge intervened. If we are forced to go down the route of an alternative site there is still a process that has to be followed that will itself take years; 4-5 at minimum. All alternatives also involve significant additional costs that are not currently budgeted for and money, inescapably, is a very important consideration.

50 years ago a mistake was made when the largest school in Edinburgh was built on a site that was far too small. We have an opportunity to rectify that. The reasons for choosing Portobello Park remain, and it remains the best site of very limited options. For that reason we need to look at what options might exist, either legal or legislative, to allow the school to proceed as planned.

However, we also have to recognise that Portobello High School will not be able to function indefinitely. The building is not fit-for-purpose, is at the end of its useful life, and huge sums of money have been diverted from other schools for repairs simply to keep it functioning. So we have to consider what other options might be available should the Park be impossible.

Existing Site

The existing site is still fundamentally too small and can’t accommodate all the required facilities. Also, unlike Holy Rood, there isn’t sufficient space to build a new school whilst the existing one continues to function. A decant off site would be required, for up to 3 years, at considerable expense and disruption, and there is no obvious location for a decant. If it could be done the school would still be compromised by being on a site too small. It would also prevent St John’s being extended or re-built on an expanded site, and St John’s is next priority in the Wave 3 schools after PHS, James Gillespie’s and Boroughmuir.

Existing Site + St John’s

This option, considered back in 2006, could be viable although the school would still require additional off-site sports facilities and the limitations of the site could compromise the layout. A decant on site might be possible, but off-site may be necessary given the requirements of demolition and construction. The same difficulties of cost, disruption and how to decant would apply. This option also requires the prior re-location of St John’s. St John’s have previously indicated that they wish to remain where they are, but if this were to be pursued just relocating St John’s could be around a 4-5 year process before demolition of PHS could even begin, so total time to deliver a new PHS could be 7-8 years.

Holy Rood

Co-locating schools has worked elsewhere. Forresters and St Augustine’s have a shared site, with a combined roll of 1800. However the site is 15.4Ha compared to Holy Rood’s site of 5.3Ha (designed roll of 1200). The Holy Rood site is not remotely big enough for two schools with a combined roll up to 2600. Locating close to Holy Rood on Cavalry Park was looked at back in 2006. Whilst that would provide a site large enough, the land is designated as Greenbelt and a Historic Scotland Designed Landscape, in addition to being Open Space. Planning difficulties would likely be insurmountable. In addition both sites are on the extreme edge of catchment and have poor accessibility and transport links.

Craigmillar

The Council have outline planning permission for a new Craigmillar Community High School and a detailed design was ready to be submitted for full planning when credit crunch stalled the redevelopment of the area. The long term plan is to proceed when the redevelopment of the area can fund the project. The Council is currently going out to consultation on closing Castlebrae due to falling pupils numbers (S1 intake of 21) with many pupils opting for out of catchment schools, including PHS. However, the proposed school is designed for a roll of 600 rising to 900 as the redevelopment of the area takes place. Combining the PHS catchment would require a school of 2000-2300. That would be a huge school. The budget for a 1400 school will not stretch to building a school of 2000 or more, and the process of statutory consultation, design and planning would have to start again from scratch so a 4-5 year delay at minimum is likely. Transport and access would also be a considerable problem with such a large catchment and, most importantly, Portobello High School, a very successful school, would simply cease to exist.

Scottish Power site

At 2.1Ha the Scottish Power site itself is far too small. If the Council were able to purchase the additional properties adjacent, the site are could be brought up to 3.2Ha, again on the small side. Acquiring property at the Standard Life estate could create a large enough site, but Standard Life has indicated in the past they had no intention to sell. The Council’s nearby Baileyfield Depot is due to close, but that is because the lease is running out i.e. the Council don’t own it. The site is on the edge of catchment but has good transport links. The biggest problem with the site is size and ownership, with the costs of acquiring sites and compensating for relocation likely to be prohibitive. If deliverable it would again mean starting a process from scratch, so 4-5 years at minimum.

Bingham Park

This was considered back in 2006. Being on the edge of catchment the location isn’t ideal and access is poor. There’s also a respite centre being built on the old Lismore Primary site which isn’t ideal. A school in this location would effectively take up the whole of Bingham Park so the biggest issue would be planning, and the Planners indicated they weren’t keen on the idea back in 2006. Again the process would start from scratch, so 4-5 years minimum, and there would be a planning risk (although who would object to building a school on a park?)

Freightliner

Same size as the existing site at 2.9Ha so too small, terrible location bounded by bypass and East Coast mainline, appalling access, polluted site, not owned by the Council and nationally designated as a Strategic Rail Site. There is no prospect of locating a school here.

Big W

Slightly smaller than the existing site so too small, poor location and access, not owned by the Council and commercially valuable site so expensive to acquire. If it could be acquired, again the process would start from scratch, so 4-5 years minimum.

Two Schools

Two smaller schools could make smaller sites viable, but there are economies of scale so two smaller schools are more expensive than one big one, and smaller schools don’t take up that much less space. To make the existing PHS site viable you would have to greatly reduce the roll. Not only would that require a hugely divisive and disruptive redrawing of the catchment, but it would fundamentally change the character of the school. The size of PHS at 1400 enables it to deliver a breadth of educational opportunities that a smaller school would struggle to. There is currently no budget allocation sufficient to cover the cost of two schools, pursuing this option would mean starting a process from scratch so 4-5 years minimum, and it is likely to face considerable public opposition which could cause further delay.

Like I said, you don't come up with any ideas of your own.

[seanie]

Like I said, you don't come up with any ideas of your own.

Ah well, when I try to think about alternatives I limit myself by trying to keep a grip on reality. That inevitably reduces the options. If reality isn't a limiting factor, then admittedly the options increase significantly.