Cycling on the Promenade

[seashell]

I have no problem with cyclists using pavements in a careful and considerate fashion in situations where to cycle on the road would be much more dangerous. .

I think the problem in such situations is that the cyclist transfers the perceived danger to themselves onto pedestrians. No matter how considerate a cyclist may be, pavement users expect to encounter only traffic moving at a walking pace, such as prams, buggies, dogs and their humans, electric wheelchairs etc. If a cyclist really feels they cannot use the road - then they should wheel their bike along the pavement!

[BeachBum]

...

I have no problem with cyclists using pavements in a careful and considerate fashion in situations where to cycle on the road would be much more dangerous.

...

According to the Direct.gov.uk website the max fine for cycling on the pavement is £500. Maybe its about time the Police set cyclists in their targets, its prob accurate to say they spend most of their time targeting motorists in terms of organised operations & active monitoring.

[Bob Jefferson]

I would like to think that the police prioritise their limited resources. How many people do motorists kill every year? How many people do cyclists kill every year?

[Maria]

Maybe its about time the Police set cyclists in their targets, .

But most likely not.

[BeachBum]

Maybe its about time the Police set cyclists in their targets, .

But most likely not.

I cant see it happening either likes.

[Porty]

The odds are very much stacked in favour of the motorist. And the government keep making it more and more difficult. Take post office closures for example and the effect on post office raiders who prefer to cycle to there targeted outlet. What chance have they got of making a succesful getaway if they have to cycle 10 miles or more instead of a few hundred yards? - not that these closures have any benefit for crooks who travel by car and now have to travel many more miles to perform their basic job functions. Its not just elderly people who have suffered by this ill-considered rationalisation!

[Pal of Porty]

When I am in power I will be spending many millions providing a fully joined up, off-road cycle network in and around Edinburgh. Vote now!

[wangi]

Recent posts primarily concerning Brighton Pl have been split to: http://forum.talkporty.org/viewtopic.php?t=4509

[wangi]

I received an email yesterday from the council re a request I made for cycle parking on the Prom. I don't have the foggiest of making such a request. Dug into it a bit and found a response a year ago to an email I sent about cycle parking (I seem to remember if was city centre); but the original email has since been auto deleted by the corporate email retention policy (14 months)...

Anyway, site visit on Monday...

[bathst2]

The risk to cyclists around Edinburgh especially in the "rush hours" really seems to have escalated with all the road works! In5 or so years of a bike being my main transport I had "only" had 2 accidents (ie when I came off the bike in collision with a car and once when a v small child ran out in front of me and I managed to stop but fell off!) and a few close shaves...now it seems I have a couple close shaves every time I cycle to and from town! I am consequently cycling less to town and I wouldnt dare take my teenage son along on a bike too!
Favourite "errors" from car drivers seems to be very late jumping of red lights at junctions, not signalling at all when turning off and pulling in left just after overtaking me! I see from postings these are common concerns! I also shoult at other cyclists who jump lights....one did it today in Newington cycling twice over green pedestrian lights...those who do this give us a bad name! If we want to be treated with respect like traffic we do ultimately have to behave like it...and I agree Lothian Bus drivers do seem more aware these days and First buses dont, frequently driving past very close to my elbow...I even think a lot of taxi drivers are better too these days!

[seashell]

The risk to cyclists around Edinburgh ...

Re dangers from cars passing too close - I used to reach out and bang on the roof of the offending vehicle. If the car is close enough to touch - then it is too close. Trouble is, drivers feel cocooned in their little world when in a car...

[Bazza]

I told a cyclist (from Porty) off for jumping a red light in Piersfield the other day, and he went radge and started swearing at me.

Nice.

It really annoys me, cos it makes it even harder for pedestrians. They don't get much time to cross roads, and this time an old lady thought she'd misjudged the lights when she saw the bike, and headded back to the pavement, even though she could've crossed safely.

And then last night, I had an @rsehole in a transit van trying to spit on me the whole way from Abbeyhill to Jock's Lodge.

Aah, the joys of the open road...

[DG]

And then last night, I had an @rsehole in a transit van trying to spit on me the whole way from Abbeyhill to Jock's Lodge.

Sorry to hear this, Bazza. It seems that any form of road transport seems to bring the worst out of people. Unacceptable behaviour becomes the norm. You can only hope the wind was blowing back on him

DG

[Bazza]

Ach, it's OK. I've been cycling all my life, mostly in cities, so I'm used to the bad behaviour. And Edinburgh's definitely much nicer to ride in that it used to be!

[Maria]

From today's EN: Cycling ban on promenade lifted

[nads]

really need to put in a cycling strip if this is to be lifted, was on prom all day Sunday and it was heaving just grabbed my 2.5 year old twice as he was nearly hit by a bike its a shame felt like I couldnt let him walk without holding his hand which is hard to do when pushing a buggy, ruined my afternoon as I couldnt relax

[Pal of Porty]

really need to put in a cycling strip if this is to be lifted, was on prom all day Sunday and it was heaving just grabbed my 2.5 year old twice as he was nearly hit by a bike its a shame felt like I couldnt let him walk without holding his hand which is hard to do when pushing a buggy, ruined my afternoon as I couldnt relax

Even with a cycle lane a 2.5 year old toddler is still likely to toddle into it if left to his own devices.

[nads]

yes but he can see bikes coming ahead of him, but on Sunday there were so many bikes they were coming from all directions, he is quite capable of walking next to me and the buggy and he had done for at least 4 months, I didnt feel comfortable, there should be a seperate lane so at least you know they are only on that 1 area

[Grunk]

there should be a seperate lane so at least you know they are only on that 1 area

I think that the Prom would have to be widened (at least in some areas) for this to happen. As you can't have the lane on the shore side of the prom because of folk joining the prom from the side streets not being visible.
And you can't have it by the wall as people inevitably use it to sit on and scoff greasy chip before dropping their litter in the sand.

I imagine some pedestrians wouldn't care which part of the prom they were walking on regardless of whether it was a designated cycle lane or not.

All it takes is a bit of consideration from both pedestrians and cyclists to make it work. But both cams definitely have selfish members which spoil it for everyone else.

[seanie]

Letters: City puts a spoke in it by lifting the bike ban on Prom

[Bob Jefferson]

From today's EN Letters Page:

Permission with a nod and a wink isn't proper law

[Pal of Porty]

From today's Evening News Letters Page - 2 letters of relevance.

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/opini ... 5343508.jp

[Pal of Porty]

.....All it takes is a bit of consideration from both pedestrians and cyclists to make it work. But both cams definitely have selfish members which spoil it for everyone else.

Good summary.

[wangi]

I cycle the entire length of the Prom... However if you are concerned about what arbitrary placed signs say is allowed then Bazza is indeed right. All of the Prom northwest of the Indoor Bowling is explicitly marked as being a cycle route (the blue signs), as is the continuing pavement along Seafield Rd.

For the rest it's a confused situation... With the above mentioned red signs but also blue signs on some paths leading onto the Prom...

However as a proposed Core Path and the Edinburgh Water Prom scheme the momentum is definitely towards explicitly allowing cycling on the remainder of the Prom.

And it has come to pass. Following the formal adoption of the Prom as a Core Path cycling is now allowed. See following article from Cycling Scotland: http://www.cyclingscotland.org/news/roa ... ore-paths/

...
It should be noted however that under section 7.1 of the Land Reform Act, once a route is identified in an adopted Core Path Plan as a “Core Path”, all exemptions set out in Section 6 of the Land Reform Act (see A.1.4 above) do not apply to that route. This means that on “Core Path” routes, all non-motorised users would have the right to use the route and a redetermination order would not be required to permit use by cyclists. For example, if a “Core Path” route is along a footway contiguous with a road, the Core Path legislation supersedes the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984 restrictions, and permits the responsible use of that footway by all non-motorised users (including cyclists).
...
The City of Edinburgh Council has investigated these issues in relation to cases such as Portobello Promenade and Jawbone Walk on the Meadows, which arose following adoption of the core paths plan. It was subsequently reported to the Edinburgh Access Forum (Sept 2010) that:

Following a review of roads and access legislation by Legal Services, it was agreed that signage prohibiting cycling should be removed. All signage to be reviewed for Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 compliance, and where appropriate replaced by advisory notices.
...

and in Maureen's update today:

Shared Path Signage.pdf

(32.06 KiB) Downloaded 291 times

The vexed question of Cycling on Portobello Promenade is with us again. Away back in 1997, Portobello Community Council, with the support of Lothian Health, did a consultation on this and produced a document 'Promoting Cycling in Portobello' led by Lesley Reid. This exercise was undertaken in response to a very heated local public meeting on the topic. At that time, cycling on the Promenade was illegal. This study established - by and large - that careful adult cyclists and children, learning to cycle safely and going to school, might be tolerated. It has now been established that cycling is permitted on the Promenade in Portobello, I believe this is as a consequence of recent change in the law on access (although I am checking this). Under the current legislation, the Promenade becomes a shared pedestrian and cycle path. This change - IF accepted as inevitable - may well be contentious for local people. The cycling lobby group SPOKES are in support of this change. They have suggested that it would be helpful to put up signs saying something like 'Careful Cyclists Welcome' , which would be in line with the current law. I attach a mock up of what kind of sign might be put up instead of the current 'No Cycling' signs. If if you have any thoughts or comments, please let me know. The whole question is due to be discussed by Portobello Community Council at its 26 September Meeting.

[Pal of Porty]

Magic - can't wait to to tell the tutting old bags as I cycle carefully along.

[seanie]

It's a moot point now, but whilst the Council previously insisted that cycling was banned the police took a different view. They made it clear on a number of occasions that as far as they were concerned it was permitted.

[Bob Jefferson]

Very supportive of this. It's exactly what some of us have been saying for many years.

[Mark Cameron]

I've holidayed in Austria a couple of times and have always been really impressed by how in tune they seem to be with cyclists. They easily cope with having cyclists and pedestrian using the same paths (where they don't have specific ones for each). For example on many a shared path they mark out lanes for cycling (both ways if room permits) and another for pedestrians. The cycle lanes have a picture of a bike painted in them every few metres. The fact that people can see there are specified lanes I think helps greatly.

I don't see why something like this wouldn't work on the Prom as it is plenty wide. As has been said above though it does need both pedestrains and cyclists to be considerate towards each other.

[rapunzell]

They might consider that! It's done on the Meadows, after all.

I should add that I don't know which lane to use on the Meadows so I trundle along the white line in the middle.

The only problem I've had using the Meadows lane is when I'm out at the same time as that baby buggy walking club, who walk six together, side by side across the entire path and bike lane too.

[Pal of Porty]

Please note that last post should have been by Pal of Porty - I did not notice that Stephen must have logged on to my machine in my absence.

[rmolehusband]

I'm not sure a split path would work, especially on the busy sections from, say, the fun park to the baths at least. I think cyclists (and I'm one, most days) just have to learn to adapt to the conditions. Slow right down, watch for kids, give way, and, ultimately, get off and walk when it's busy. The (slightly) less vulnerable cyclist should always give way to the more vulnerable peds.

Since the prom is now a core path my understanding is your legally obliged to behave 'responsibly', as defined by the terms of Scottish Outdoor Access Code.

[wangi]

A reminder that Portobello Community Council have cycling on the Prom on their agenda tonight (Cycling and the Promenade: proposed changes to signage 7:35)

7:30 pm in Portobello Baptist Church Hall, 185 Portobello High Street, EH15 1EU (next door to Portobello Bar)

(I'm expecting some to state that the Prom shouldn't be a core path!)

[Franck]

A reminder that Portobello Community Council have cycling on the Prom on their agenda tonight (Cycling and the Promenade: proposed changes to signage 7:35)

7:30 pm in Portobello Baptist Church Hall, 185 Portobello High Street, EH15 1EU (next door to Portobello Bar)

(I'm expecting some to state that the Prom shouldn't be a core path!)

I thought cycling on the prom was now officially allowed?surely the signs should now be removed instead of changed?

[wangi]

I thought cycling on the prom was now officially allowed? surely the signs should now be removed instead of changed?

See here Franck

Shared Path Signage.pdf

The vexed question of Cycling on Portobello Promenade is with us again. Away back in 1997, Portobello Community Council, with the support of Lothian Health, did a consultation on this and produced a document 'Promoting Cycling in Portobello' led by Lesley Reid. This exercise was undertaken in response to a very heated local public meeting on the topic. At that time, cycling on the Promenade was illegal. This study established - by and large - that careful adult cyclists and children, learning to cycle safely and going to school, might be tolerated. It has now been established that cycling is permitted on the Promenade in Portobello, I believe this is as a consequence of recent change in the law on access (although I am checking this). Under the current legislation, the Promenade becomes a shared pedestrian and cycle path. This change - IF accepted as inevitable - may well be contentious for local people. The cycling lobby group SPOKES are in support of this change. They have suggested that it would be helpful to put up signs saying something like 'Careful Cyclists Welcome' , which would be in line with the current law. I attach a mock up of what kind of sign might be put up instead of the current 'No Cycling' signs. If if you have any thoughts or comments, please let me know. The whole question is due to be discussed by Portobello Community Council at its 26 September Meeting.

And here:

Taking of cycling, quite a few people asked about the legal basis for allowing cycling on the Prom and I have attached a briefing one from the Council's legal team, which formed the basis of an internal Council officer discussion on the matter in June. This will be a topic for discussion and debate by Portobello Community Council in September.

Portobello Prom - Access Rights for Cyclists on Core Paths.doc

And there is more info on the Local Updates forum.

Essentially the red signs need replaced with blue ones - what's to discuss? Well I imagine it'll have very little to do with the signs and more to do with cycling on the Prom in general...

[Pal of Porty]

I hope they put up up a sign saying that dog owners with 20 feet, almost invisible dog leads, will have to donate a week's wages to PPAG