Towerbank and the Student Support Centre

StarVanMan · Post by **StarVanMan** » 01 Apr 2009, 22:10

Keep going Bob. I'm interested to see what the Council says about this.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 01 Apr 2009, 23:19

So am I. Hope we can make out what they are saying through the mouthful of humble pie.

seashell · Post by **seashell** » 14 Apr 2009, 10:30

seanie wrote:The glossy, high quality TSSC leaflet also says the following;

As you will see from the attached letter, your Headteacher has looked at our service and feels that this may be of interest to you. We only request that you send back the reply slip, whether you are interested or not, so that the school is aware that you have seen this leaflet.
Which displays an almost psychic understanding of the contents of the letter accompanying the leaflet. And again the encouragement to return the slip whether you are interested or not.

Just so the school's aware that the leaflet's been seen of course.

No other reason.

When you fill in the slip, is there any indication that this information will be used for commercial purposes? That should be made abundantly clear.
I wonder how much the Council is being paid for allowing and actively promoting this little venture?

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 23 Apr 2009, 22:31

Update:

From: John.Fraser@edinburgh.gov.uk
Subject: The Student Support Centre
Date: 16 April 2009 11:42:54 BST
To: bob.jefferson@btinternet.com
Cc: Frances.Smith@edinburgh.gov.uk

Dear Mr Jefferson, Frances Smith has passed to me your correspondence regarding the Student Support Centre. I apologise for not being in touch with you sooner but I have just returned from leave.

Frances sent you a copy of the letter I sent to Headteachers. Schools often suggest to pupils they read books, refer to websites, read newspaper articles etc to supplement the work done in school. Parents frequently ask how they can support their children with their school work. Having met with the representative from the Student Support Centre (who had been a Headteacher) it occurred to me schools may wish to make parents aware of the tutorial materials available.The letter indicates that there is no obligation for Headteachers to meet with the company.

There are absolutely no financial implications for the Authority. All I have done is make schools aware of a learning support service.

I trust this is helpful but if you require more information please do not hesitate to contact me.

John Fraser

John Fraser
Head of Schools
Schools and Community Services
The City of Edinburgh Council
Children and Families Department
Waverley Court
Business Centre 1/1
4 East Market Street
EDINBURGH
EH8 8BG

Telephone: 0131 469 3539
Fax: 0131 529 6211

BeachBum · Post by **BeachBum** » 23 Apr 2009, 22:39

Did you get permission from the sender of the email to make its contents public?

I thought you had to? But I could/probably am wrong.

I only think that because when I (as a corporate council employee) send an email to a non council email address, below my details at the end will appear a bit of blurb which reads as follows:

This email and files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended for the sole use of the individual or organisation to whom they are addressed.

If you have received this eMail in error please notify the sender immediately and delete it without using, copying, storing, forwarding or disclosing its contents to any other person.

The Council has endeavoured to scan this eMail message and attachments for computer viruses and will not be liable for any losses incurred by the recipient.

************************************************************************

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 23 Apr 2009, 22:40

I replied as follows:

Subject: Re: The Student Support Centre
From: bob.jefferson@btinternet.com
Date: 16 April 2009 19:47:17 BST
To: John.Fraser@edinburgh.gov.uk
Cc: Frances.Smith@edinburgh.gov.uk

Mr Fraser

Thank you for your response. Since my initial enquiry I have spoken to many parents and teachers who share my concerns about the Student Support Centre and the way they operate.

Your letter to HTs, however intentioned, was in effect the official seal of approval that SSC required to get their foot in the door in Edinburgh.

One Edinburgh HT, who does not wish to be named, told me that he/she felt that they had been 'used' by the sales representative and the whole exercise had been 'more trouble than it was worth' in view of the number of complaints received from parents. The rep had basically invited himself to a meeting on the strength of your letter and the HT had felt pressured to accept. After all, the Head of Schools had been 'very impressed' with what the company had to offer. After a brief, glossy presentation, the rep had assured the HT that he could sort the whole thing out with the school secretary. The head's signature is then scanned onto a pro forma letter and it goes, along with the company's own glossy flyer, into the children's school bags. It is carefully worded so that the HT is not seen to officially promote the company but, nevertheless, " having reviewed the service they provide, (I) feel it may be of interest to you and of benefit to your children." To a parent, anxious to do the best for their child, this carries considerable weight and SSC know it and trade on it.

How does SSC ensure that the forms are returned in order to maximise the benefit of this marketing exercise? Well, to begin with, they embolden, italicise and underline the words 'no later than Thursday' and just to be sure they add a post script:

"PS. It would be helpful if you could return the reply slip whether you are interested or not, so that the school is aware that you have seen the leaflet. Thank you."

All ostensibly written and signed by the HT.

Just to make sure they got the message, my daughter's teacher also reminded the class that the form had to be returned the following day. My daughter became upset when we explained that we would not be returning it. After all, this contradicted a direct instruction from someone she had thus far trusted and obeyed without question.

So, "just so that the school is aware that you have seen the leaflet"? Or just so that SSC have parents' names, addresses, telephone numbers, the names of our children, their ages and their school on a database to generate sales leads? "Whether you are interested or not." Now they have your details, they can always work on you later.

And what does this service cost? A little research reveals that SSC sales reps push parents very hard to sign up to 3 or 4 year contracts, payable by direct debit, amounting to thousands of pounds.

What is the commercial worth of this database? From what I have been able to learn, though HTs are understandably reluctant to talk about this, around £100. Of course I may be wrong about this, in which case I would be grateful if you could supply me with a list of schools that participated and how much each was paid, in the interests of transparency.

In effect, schools have unwittingly and naively aided and abetted a commercial company in obtaining personal details of parents and their children for the sort of money they could otherwise raise from a tombola stall. And it is worth noting that SSC has thereby obtained an unfair commercial advantage over other local, established tutors.

I would welcome your comments on this and I would seek an assurance from you that measures will be put in place to ensure that there can be no repetition of this exercise. If companies like SSC want to sell their services to parents then there are many other ways of doing so, albeit perhaps less cost-effective. There is an important bond of trust between teachers and parents and what has taken place has been an abuse of that trust.

Bob Jefferson

That was a week ago. No response from the Head of Schools to date.

BeachBum · Post by **BeachBum** » 23 Apr 2009, 22:44

Bob Jefferson wrote: That was a week ago. No response from the Head of Schools to date.

To be fair, im sure he is a very busy man and replying to one parent isnt top of his to do list, although im sure it will feature somewhere on it.

You should do an FOI request to see how many complaints/parent feedbacks have been recorded re the SSC. Be interesting to see if anyone else cares enough to make formal contact.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 23 Apr 2009, 22:46

BeachBum wrote:Did you get permission from the sender of the email to make its contents public?

I don't consider it necessary to request permission. This is an issue that is in the public interest.

StarVanMan · Post by **StarVanMan** » 24 Apr 2009, 23:28

The nub of John Fraser's letter is to say this is an educational offer just like books, websites etc. If publishers, website managers etc got schools to write to parents he would be making a relevant point.

He also says that the rep he spoke to used to be a Head Teacher implying this is significant. It isn't.

seashell · Post by **seashell** » 29 Apr 2009, 12:59

Bob Jefferson wrote:Update:

There are absolutely no financial implications for the Authority. All I have done is make schools aware of a learning support service.

he makes parents aware of ONE particular service?? That's dangerously close to restrictive practices. At the very least, surely any info being distributed by schools should make readers aware that other services are available and that the Council does not endorse this particular service. I wonder if it was run past legal Services?

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 30 Apr 2009, 09:44

Two weeks have now passed and no reply from the Head of Schools. Do you think he is ignoring me in the hope I will go away? It's a well-used tactic of course and one that often works. But not in my case.

After all, it was Mr Fraser who wrote:

if you require more information please do not hesitate to contact me.

Well, I do require more information and I have contacted him. I'm sure he is a busy man and has other things to deal with. And I'm sure that this is an awkward situation for him and he may wish to take his time in formulating a reply. So I'm prepared to wait for a few more days.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 30 Apr 2009, 14:24

As The Fortunes sang:

"It's a storm in a teacup
Brewin' up double
Almost any little trouble
It's a storm in a teacup
It really doesn't matter
If it pitter pitter patters all the day "

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 06 May 2009, 22:29

A reply from the Head of Schools:

From: John.Fraser@edinburgh.gov.uk
Subject: RE: The Student Support Centre
Date: 6 May 2009 12:36:09 BST
To: bob.jefferson@btinternet.com
Cc: Frances.Smith@edinburgh.gov.uk

Dear Mr Jefferson, I had hoped to meet with the rep. from SSC to share with him your concerns and observations before I responded to your email. I would have then been able to relay to you his responses. However, although I have made contact with him and I will arrange to meet with him again, he is on holiday at the present time.

I cannot provide you with any information regarding the number of schools who made contact with SSC or the extent to which each of these schools considered the service SSC were offering. As I explained in my previous email, there was no obligation for Headteachers to meet with the Company.

When I meet with the rep. of SSC I will bring to his attention your comments.

John Fraser

mr magnolia · Post by **mr magnolia** » 07 May 2009, 07:49

You'll not get an answer to the substance of your issue, then Bob - you're going to get a washing-machine's worth of spin wrapped up in details of numbers and chat about engagement and community linkages etc etc.

Keep going though but!

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 07 May 2009, 18:32

I intend to, but I think my dialogue with Mr Fraser has run its course. I'm not remotely interested in what the sales rep from SSC has to say on the matter.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 19 May 2009, 18:05

The following question will be put to Education leader, Marilyne MacLaren by Councillor Ricky Henderson at next week's full Council meeting:

a) What is the nature of the relationship between the Council's Children and Families Department and the Student Support Centre?

b) Is there a financial incentive for schools in allowing the Student Support Centre access to children and consequently their parents for the purpose of marketing their services?

c) What rules are in place for the management of information that the Student Support Centre have access to?

seashell · Post by **seashell** » 19 May 2009, 18:28

Nice one.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 20 Jun 2009, 08:54

For the record:

Bob

An update, questions and answers below -

Question 1

What is the nature of the relationship between the Council's Children and Families Department and the Student Support Centre?

Answer 1

There is no formal relationship between the Council’s Children and Families Department and the Student Support Centre.

Question 2

Is there a financial incentive for schools in allowing the Student Support Centre access to children and consequently their parents for the purpose of marketing their services?

Answer 2

No. There is no financial incentive for schools or the Children and Families Department.

Question 3

What rules are in place for the management of information that the Student Support Centre have access to?

Answer 3

Any arrangement made with the Student Support Centre is at a school level. Individual schools have responsibility for managing any information given to outside organisations and companies.

We have the opportunity to ask a verbal supplementary to the written response above and I asked what advice she (Marilyne) or the Dept could offer to parents who were uncomfortable about a commercial organisation being given access to marketing opportunities through schools / children's school bags. Her reply was that they should approach their Parent Council to gain their support and ask the Head Teacher not to accept any such requests / advances.

That probably is a reasonable approach but obviously places the onus on parents to initiate some sort of campaign and I don't know how many will. Perhaps Parent Councils should discuss this themselves ?

Hope the above is helpful.

Regards

Ricky H

Question 1 is a rubbish question, easily batted back. Unfortunately, Ricky Henderson didn't get in touch with me until after the questions had been formulated.

The answer to Question 2 is, in my opinion, untrue. You can split hairs about what constitutes a 'financial incentive' but the fact remains that sums of money, albeit trivial amounts, were promised and paid in return for the opportunity to conduct marketing exercises. I imagine that Marilyne MacLaren has simply taken John Fraser's word on this without carrying out any investigation of her own. An FOI request should clarify the situation.

Re Question 3, it is quite clear that the Head of Schools should be issuing guidance on what is appropriate in terms of the management of such information. Collusion with private companies to obtain personal data from parents and children in order for such companies to gain a commercial advantage is neither appropriate nor acceptable.

Anyway, I have made my point and will continue to make my point on this matter as I consider necessary and hopefully I have made enough of a fuss to ensure that there will be no repetition of this type of thing.

Klingon · Post by **Klingon** » 14 Sep 2009, 09:20

seashell · Post by **seashell** » 14 Sep 2009, 15:25

Thanks for posting this, Klingon - it makes very interesting reading indeed. Please let us know how you get on.
Very intrigued to hear that parents up and down the country are objecting to this company's practices!

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 14 Sep 2009, 20:34

I'm glad you found us Klingon and delighted that someone else is taking up the issue. It's still unfinished business as far as I'm concerned. Please keep us updated.

Klingon · Post by **Klingon** » 15 Sep 2009, 16:36

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 15 Sep 2009, 16:48

To be honest, I think they are just being naive. My gripe is with the Head of Schools who should know better.

Klingon · Post by **Klingon** » 09 Oct 2009, 08:01

Would you believe it? Having asked those probing questions, Anglesey Council's Education Department have failed to comply with the legal requirement to respond within 20 working days.

Their Corporate Information man is now taking up the baton (in fairness, he is very honourable), and I've sent a complaint to the Information Commissioner's Office.

As always, challenging things like this is, well, a bit too much of a challenge for the 'authorities'.

More news as it's made...

J.

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 09 Oct 2009, 10:39

To be fair, it's not obvious how your questions relate to FOI legislation.

FOI concerns recorded information. You have a right to ask for e-mails, minutes, letters, reports, memos etc. relating to particular matters.

You haven't actually phrased any of your questions in that way; asking for written records relating to TSSC. Your questions are generally of an open nature.

They simply don't qualify as FOI requests.

Klingon · Post by **Klingon** » 09 Oct 2009, 12:28

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 09 Oct 2009, 12:43

I think your questions are perfectly reasonable.

But I don't think any of them, not a single one, constitutes a valid FOI request.

Certainly the Council should've responded by now in some manner, perhaps to clarify the information you wanted, but as far as FOI goes your questions are far too vague to qualify.

Klingon · Post by **Klingon** » 09 Oct 2009, 12:50

seanie wrote:I think your questions are perfectly reasonable.

But I don't think any of them, not a single one, constitutes a valid FOI request.

Certainly the Council should've responded by now in some manner, perhaps to clarify the information you wanted, but as far as FOI goes your questions are far too vague to qualify.

Sorry, but you're wrong. For starters, here's an extract from the ICO's guidance on making a request:

• Your request can be in the form of a question, but the authority does not have to answer your question if this would mean creating new information or giving an opinion or judgement that is not already recorded.

So they can interpret that quite literally, i.e., if my question asks about something they don't hold on record, then they can say so, and I would accept it, of course. I have no idea what records they do or do not have, which is another reason why I ask questions rather than keep on guessing what they might have and they saying 'sorry, haven't got that one'.

Perhaps the best case I have is that I have, as part of my work, made about 20 or so FoIA requests plus one EIR request in the past year, and to more than one authority, including the Met. police. I have had full replies (in some cases, after a ICO complaint) to all of them, in many, sometimes very sensitive cases, containing more information that I had requested, partly as a result of asking questions.

You may also like to know that I have made a total of five ICO complaints about non-reponses, all of which have resulted in notices being issued to the authority in question. One of those related to a high-ranking official in a homelessness case. His initial response 'That doesn't fall under FoIA so I'm not responding'. He did, with an apology, after the ICO got onto him!

J.

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 09 Oct 2009, 12:57

A number of your questions appear to be rhetorical; to that extent they may well deserve a response but they're not genuine FOI requests. For example;

(2) Why does the school simply not state that it in no way
endorses this company, rather than saying it is not 'actively
endorsing' it?

Are you actually anticipating a record of why the phrase 'actively endorsing' was used as opposed to 'in no way endorse'?

If so I'd be astonished. You're actually making a polemical rhetorical point about the use of language. Fair enough, but it has nothing to do with FOI.

Klingon · Post by **Klingon** » 09 Oct 2009, 13:02

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 09 Oct 2009, 13:06

I get your point entirely.

But it's got nothing to do with FOI.

Klingon · Post by **Klingon** » 09 Oct 2009, 13:08

We'll just have to disagree, I think. We've both made our case, so let's wait for a couple more days, to see what will transpire.

You're actually making a polemical rhetorical point about the use of language

Well, by now,you are making assertions about my intent. I prefer the ICO to make the final decision, thanks!

For any readers with an interest, the correct stance can be read here:

http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documents/ ... oi_act.pdf

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 09 Oct 2009, 16:43

FOI covers information that is recorded and held. Look again at that particular question;

(2) Why does the school simply not state that it in no way endorses this company, rather than saying it is not 'actively endorsing' it?

That question may be worth asking, except of course for the fact that the answer is already known, but it's difficult to interperet in a manner, covered by FOI.

If you'd worded your question more specifically, for correspondence/minutes relating to TSSC, or records of gifts/corporate hospitality etc, then yes, FOI would cover it.

Some of your questions are obviously impossiblev to answer, some rhetorical, and some you already know the answer to.

It doesn't strike me as a terribly illuminating way to go about things.

Klingon · Post by **Klingon** » 10 Oct 2009, 09:43

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 10 Oct 2009, 10:13

I'm justing pointing out that your questions don't actually realte to FOI. To take another example;

6) Even when a parent does not wish to accept the offer of 'services' from this company, they are asked (actually, it is more like coercion, as parents are specifically and repeatedly told to return the form regardless) to supply the name, age and school of the pupil. There is no notice of whom the Data Controller evident on the form, and the company would appear to have no lawful reason, in the case of non-interest, to process such data in accordance with the Data Protection Act 1998. Please do not be tempted to reply that this is a matter for the
company; the school is inextricably involved in the process of acquiring this data, and so it is very much a matter for it also.

So you're saying that they're complicit in a breach of Data Protection and want them to respond. Fair enough; that's a perfectly valid question to raise.

But it's not actually about recorded information. It has nothing to do with FOI.

Talk Porty ~ Portobello

Towerbank and the Student Support Centre

Thank you to all on this thread!

No reply!