Woodwares closing / Sainsburys coming to Portobello

[lg1726]

I want an lg1726 dedicated check out in the bloody place when it opens!!!

[Puerto bella]

Good luck Lg. I have been involved with the BBC2 team on another case in Borders and they are v good, easy to work with and will put you at ease. Have no fears going into it. The programme seeks to provide a balanced view on planning.

[Mark Cameron]

lg1726 - really glad you're agreeing to do this. It's great to get as many different opinions out there about planning as possible - we've 'got your back'!

[lg1726]

lg1726 - really glad you're agreeing to do this. It's great to get as many different opinions out there about planning as possible - we've 'got your back'!

Let's hope my back does not need you, but I really appreciate the support!

And thanks for the reassurances PB; the actual filming etc bit bothers me less than putting myself forward for something like this without feeling sure that it will not cause any upset. I can only speak for me, but would hate for it to be misconstrued!

LG

[UKStationery]

Let’s not bicker about who said what, when and why, or use historical events as a baton to hit each other with, or even who has the right to speak on our behalf! What matters is the single question “Is the proposed development by Sainsbury in the best interests of Portobello and all of its people and those that pass through?”

I am very sorry that Portobello is to loose such a useful and well-loved shop as Woodwares. Where now to get advice and those hard to find items not stocked by B & Q?

I am a business owner (not products Sainsbury sell) and I’m surprised how little respect is being given to those that will be directly affected by the proposals. Let’s cut the bull and bluster and look at some of what Sainsbury are proposing and ask what we the people of Portobello want.

1: Sainsbury’s want to take down and deface one of the last listed frontages of the old Portobello High Street.
Yet many of the houses in Portobello are classified as category C(windows) and the council won’t allow these to be changed!

2: Sainsbury’s re-stock daily from a very large lorry.
How will that help our hard pressed traffic flow? With a lorry at the door and a line of traffic on the other side of the street or indeed just a bus at the stop, the road will be blocked to police, ambulance and fire engines!

3: Late hours, across the street from aged persons flats.

4: Another cash point.
Do we not have enough? I don’t see many folk having to wait at the existing.

5: Installation of cooling and air con. (With fans only feet from residential windows.)
Ok it’s within the law … but! There has been a noise study but what of the airborne infection possibilities?

6: Another source of alcohol. (Subject to licence being granted.)
Are we not already well serviced for drink?

7: Sainsbury Locals sell ready meals soft drinks and packages of sandwiches.
Will they try and attract the school lunch trade! Of course they will and cut the sales of the myriad of existing suppliers.

8:Sainsbury have a lottery machine in their stores.
Do we require another lottery outlet?

Portobello has strived and is seen to be a centre for shops where real food can be bought. Made on the premises or sourced locally. That’s not Sainsbury.

Ok the Co-op should buck up its ideas but do we want to see more empty shops on the high street caused by introducing a giant shark into a pool of locally grown minnows? Don’t be fooled this Sainsbury’s will not be great threat to the co-op as the floor area is not large enough to carry the range or size of packet bought in a local weekly shop. This could change if Sainsbury took over more shops in the Woodware parade! It will however immediately be a threat to all of the smaller food shops, be they specialist or not and all of the newsagents and general stores. Findlay's and Williamson's will suffer if, by chance, shoppers’ select a pre packed fish or meat from the Sainsbury chillier cabinet rather then walk the extra distance! The same applies to The Fine Wine Shop!

When it comes down to it, business is all about volume and margins. Sainsbury can carry a small margin. If there was a price war between The Co-op and Sainsbury’s then my 35 years of retail margin setting, tends to indicate that such competition of giant’s could wipe out Portobello as a vibrant shopping hub.

I think we will loose 7 or 8 establishments!
These shops would not close because they don’t give the service or their prices are ridiculously high but because the loss of market share will make them uneconomic! With its demographic and with access problems Portobello is of restricted market size with little possibility of expansion. Sainsbury will do much more damage than knockout the odd historic window or general store.

This is not a pop-up shop, Sainsbury will make it work!

Remember “Its business to them its Portobello to us.”

[little miss moffat]

To be honest, I don't shop much in Portobello mainly because there is not a decent selection of varied shops. I come down to Portobello High Street for the bank, sometimes buy fish, usually pop in to semichem, occasionally buy something from Greggs - then go to Asda for the rest of my shopping! I refuse point blank to shop in Scotmid. I personally feel there are too many charity shops and not enough selection of other shops. However....... now that Sainsbury is moving into the High Street, I will probably pop in there and give the trip to Asda a miss. I think a varied selection of shops is what is needed on the High street - to encourage people to come shop there, but...... it is no use if you can only pick up a few of your items on the High Street and then have to go elsewhere to get the rest of the shopping that you need. I think Sainsbury's alone will bring more shoppers to the High Street. But the more the variety of shops - the more shoppers will be encouraged to visit the area.

[seashell]

if not Sainsburys' - then what would people like to see instead?
I realise this is a purely hypothetical question, but it is unlikly that another hardward shop would open on the Wodwares site. So for those who, for whatever reason, are opposed to Sainsury's - what sort of shop would add to the appeal of the High Street *and* be profitable?
Personnally, I would love an independent fabric shop, along the lines of Purely Patchwork in Linlithgow - and there is certainly enough room to have a room for classes - but would there be enough custom? the current economic climate would probably mitigate against it.
An outdoor clothing shop would also be good.

[Roscoe1961]

FYI folks.
Woodwares aren't closing.
They are retaining a portion of the store (currently paint/decoration) and the Basement and will continue trading.

[Mark Cameron]

Let’s not bicker about who said what, when and why, or use historical events as a baton to hit each other with, or even who has the right to speak on our behalf! What matters is the single question “Is the proposed development by Sainsbury in the best interests of Portobello and all of its people and those that pass through?”

I am very sorry that Portobello is to loose such a useful and well-loved shop as Woodwares. Where now to get advice and those hard to find items not stocked by B & Q?

I am a business owner (not products Sainsbury sell) and I’m surprised how little respect is being given to those that will be directly affected by the proposals. Let’s cut the bull and bluster and look at some of what Sainsbury are proposing and ask what we the people of Portobello want.

1: Sainsbury’s want to take down and deface one of the last listed frontages of the old Portobello High Street.
Yet many of the houses in Portobello are classified as category C(windows) and the council won’t allow these to be changed!

2: Sainsbury’s re-stock daily from a very large lorry.
How will that help our hard pressed traffic flow? With a lorry at the door and a line of traffic on the other side of the street or indeed just a bus at the stop, the road will be blocked to police, ambulance and fire engines!

3: Late hours, across the street from aged persons flats.

4: Another cash point.
Do we not have enough? I don’t see many folk having to wait at the existing.

5: Installation of cooling and air con. (With fans only feet from residential windows.)
Ok it’s within the law … but! There has been a noise study but what of the airborne infection possibilities?

6: Another source of alcohol. (Subject to licence being granted.)
Are we not already well serviced for drink?

7: Sainsbury Locals sell ready meals soft drinks and packages of sandwiches.
Will they try and attract the school lunch trade! Of course they will and cut the sales of the myriad of existing suppliers.

8:Sainsbury have a lottery machine in their stores.
Do we require another lottery outlet?

Portobello has strived and is seen to be a centre for shops where real food can be bought. Made on the premises or sourced locally. That’s not Sainsbury.

Ok the Co-op should buck up its ideas but do we want to see more empty shops on the high street caused by introducing a giant shark into a pool of locally grown minnows? Don’t be fooled this Sainsbury’s will not be great threat to the co-op as the floor area is not large enough to carry the range or size of packet bought in a local weekly shop. This could change if Sainsbury took over more shops in the Woodware parade! It will however immediately be a threat to all of the smaller food shops, be they specialist or not and all of the newsagents and general stores. Findlay's and Williamson's will suffer if, by chance, shoppers’ select a pre packed fish or meat from the Sainsbury chillier cabinet rather then walk the extra distance! The same applies to The Fine Wine Shop!

When it comes down to it, business is all about volume and margins. Sainsbury can carry a small margin. If there was a price war between The Co-op and Sainsbury’s then my 35 years of retail margin setting, tends to indicate that such competition of giant’s could wipe out Portobello as a vibrant shopping hub.

I think we will loose 7 or 8 establishments!
These shops would not close because they don’t give the service or their prices are ridiculously high but because the loss of market share will make them uneconomic! With its demographic and with access problems Portobello is of restricted market size with little possibility of expansion. Sainsbury will do much more damage than knockout the odd historic window or general store.

This is not a pop-up shop, Sainsbury will make it work!

Remember “Its business to them its Portobello to us.”

It's exactly this kind of attitude that is preventing Portobello from being seen as a vibrant, forward thinking destination. Of course it's not nice that people's liveliehoods may be affected but in 2012 business and a High Street is not "all about volume and proft" - it's about understanding the customer and GIVING THEM WHAT THEY WANT.....and when they want it. Any businesses that solely thinks volume and profit and misses the customer experience is dead in the water.

The first thing this post shows up is that the real aim would be to STOP Sainsbury coming to the High Street but as this can't be objected to there are instead all kinds of crap being peddled to try to turn people off this investment.

Taking your points in turn:

Point 1 - Can we as a commuity not work POSITIVELY with Sainsbury to look for a sympathetic solution rather than start another negative campaign that puts even more people off Portobello.

Point 2 - Have the No Campaign had any correspondence with Sainsbury about the timing of delivereied? Again couldn't we look at timings that would minimise any disruption during the peak times?

Point 3 - smacks of desperation to find another reason to complain.

Point 4 - ATM - surely It's not about whether people have to wait - it's about whether it's useful for shoppers (in my simple mind more money withdrawn = more money to be spent - potentially in High Street shops).

Point 5 - Agree that this could be a nuisance but surely those affected directly will raise concerns and it has absolutely no bearing on any of the other traders businesses as fafr as I can see - so for the Traders Association to include this in their objection is a joke.

point 6 - Geoff Lynn's survey results seem to suggest the community aren't against another outlet. Also if any of the current convenience shops weren't able to up their game and deliver a USP to customers that they wanted to use the number of places selling alcohol could reduce (I hope this doesn't happen but there are sme that need to buck up their ideas).

Point 7 - Site is possibly too far along the high street to attract many of the School trade but again it's about competition and choice surely.

Point 8 - Not worries if they have lottery machine one or not to be honest.

UKStationery you say - "Portobello has strived and is seen to be a centre for shops where real food can be bought. Made on the premises or sourced locally. That’s not Sainsbury." - Really!

The reply I'm increasingly getting from people I ask for an opinion on Portobello is that it's a place where locals are always complaining about any potential new idea/investment and it is never out of the local news for negative campagins. It's this that needs to stop!

You stated "Remember 'it's business to them its Portobello to us" - bit confused with that statement as it seems to contradict an earlier statement when you say "business is all about volume and proft". So which is it to you......to be perfectly honest I'm not quite clear?

[seashell]

FYI folks.
Woodwares aren't closing.
They are retaining a portion of the store (currently paint/decoration) and the Basement and will continue trading.

thanks, Roscoe.
that is good to know. DO you have any more details about what they will be selling?

[lg1726]

Let’s not bicker about who said what, when and why, or use historical events as a baton to hit each other with, or even who has the right to speak on our behalf! What matters is the single question “Is the proposed development by Sainsbury in the best interests of Portobello and all of its people and those that pass through?”

In answer to your question - in short yes , Sainbury is in the best interest of Portobello and ALL of its people! This is borne out by Geoff Lynn's survey were the majority of those who responded state that they are either neutral or in favour, with only a minority against. So in short the people of love here believe it to be so!

Now at the risk of repeating McD here my response to your points are:

1 Sainsburys will not be the only shop in the vicinity "out of keeping" there are many others who, if you apply this to the conclusion should be compelled to undertake some sort of retro refit. Unless that is to happen, its hard to see how Sainsburys should be singled out!

2 There are large lorries on the High Street every day as it is, top of Bellfield is a nightmare every morning with milk deliver lorry. Unless you intend to stop all the current deliveries i fail the see how again, Sainsburys can be singled out.

3. I'm sure that the residents are capable of making their own representation. My mother lived in sheltered house directly opposite a 24/7 huge Tesco in Elgin. She found it very handy for her shopping and her carers never had a problem popping over to get stuff for her - swings and roundabouts.

4. I welcome another cash point and it is not a planning consideration anyway. If we dont need it, market forces will determine that and if it not well used, so what? That will be Sainsburys concern surely?

5. The noise from the fans is a completely legitimate consideration, for those affected and were I living in close proximity to them would want every assurance and safeguard for my piece of mind and I'm sure those affected will be able to make that case ably.

6. I have said several times and will do so again - I would rather see ten Sainsburys on the High Street with stringent, well policed under age sales policies than 1 or 2 convenience stores with a lax attitude to under age sales.

7. We need to get and keep younger people on the High Street and Sainsburys may well help in that respect. My 25 year old son lives alone in a flat locally and currently only goes on the High Street to go to Buddy's, but says he will go to Sainsburys to get his shopping, including ready meals etc and I suspect that many will also do that. LMM makes a similar point. The High Street needs to give us what we ALL need on an everyday basis.

8. Lottery machine - not sure why this is an issue. People will buy them anywhere.

As LMM says, we need to see the High Street become a more vibrant space to shop on a daily basis and this investment by Sainsburys helps to send a message and perhaps on the back of it other investors, small, medium and bigger will follow suit. And yes it is a business and the world of business can be ruthless, as I know too well. I have a small consultancy company and we have closed down one part of the business due to the crowded market and my partner has gone back to conventional employment - not an easy decision to take, but the realities of the free market economy which those of us in business face daily, including the traders on our High Street! This is good for Porty, even if the existing traders have to up their game, we the shoppers will benefit!

[seanie]

5: Installation of cooling and air con. (With fans only feet from residential windows.)
Ok it’s within the law … but! There has been a noise study but what of the airborne infection possibilities?

It's a very good point. Some of you may be all excited by the prospect of Jamie Oliver endorsed ready meals, but don't you realise that if Sainsbury's come to Portobello that...

THOUSANDS COULD DIE!!!

[seanie]

Or at the very least be driven insane by inappropriate colours for a Conservation Area.

[cuth]

In 1894 there were 18 grocers on the High Street. Now we're panicking about half a dozen or so.

http://digital.nls.uk/directories/brows ... d=91169459

[Puerto bella]

Sainsbury's one minute - devil worship the next, its a slippery slope we're on. Am so glad we have the moral and spiritual guardians of Portobello who know what's best for me. lol

[Mark Cameron]

In 1894 there were 18 grocers on the High Street. Now we're panicking about half a dozen or so.

A but Cuth if you check the PCC minutes from 1894 (think they were eventually published in 1896) I seem to recall JS/DC approved the colour scheme for each and every one of those those persoanlly

[Makaveli]

Ah mcdryburn but in those very same PCC minutes they also opposed 'ye olde ATM' on the grounds that Mrs Miggins cobblers already had one

[fresian]

Just realised why DC is objecting, Her acronym finder has come up with "PAMS"- Portobello Against Maroon Shopfronts. Interesting that there are a few maroon shopfronts up the other end of the street.

[gillian]

FYI folks.
Woodwares aren't closing.
They are retaining a portion of the store (currently paint/decoration) and the Basement and will continue trading.

???

[Puerto bella]

I am beginning to feel like Portobello if left unchecked in the whats best on the conservation front is in danger of turning into somewhere like Rochester - where the locals like nothing more than making a mockery of its days of yore with its pastiche olde worlde shopfronts,festivals full of English people dressed up in old bridesmaid dresses and men in top hats and lots of romancing about way back when, back in the day and an old curiosity shop type of urban design. Yeuch.

[wangi]

FYI folks. Woodwares aren't closing. They are retaining a portion of the store (currently paint/decoration) and the Basement and will continue trading.

???

From what I see the planning drawings do not support that statement.

[gillian]

I am beginning to feel like Portobello if left unchecked in the whats best on the conservation front is in danger of turning into somewhere like Rochester - where the locals like nothing more than making a mockery of its days of yore with its pastiche olde worlde shopfronts,festivals full of English people dressed up in old bridesmaid dresses and men in top hats and lots of romancing about way back when, back in the day and an old curiosity shop type of urban design. Yeuch.

There would have to be a hell of a lot of mock shop fronts, Portobello high street is such a mish mash of different styles, it's what makes it attractive, in my view. Thats why it's difficult to see why there is all the hoo ha re Sainsbury's
If it was to be so markedly different then the objections would make more sense. Having said that I don't understand why Sainsbury's didn't just go for the Heritage style. Would have saved a lot of bothersome bother, or would it?.....

[geofflynn]

The Portas review has lots of interesting things to say about the challenge facing our High Street(s).

See --> http://bit.ly/OXWAM7 (Portas review pdf)


One of the bigger problems is the spiral of declining footfall, which forces stores to close, which reduces footfall further.

The September minutes of Portobello Community Council report that Woodwares have cited the declining footfall as one of the key reasons they are taking the Sainsbury's shilling:-

302.5a Sainsburys (301.4). Tom Ballantine had received clarification from Woodwares on the situation. A binding contract was in place for Sainsburys to lease the premises. There had been a considerable drop in footfall over the last 10 years and it was felt the business was only viable with full time management. It was also felt that any replacement hardware store would require a similar size of premises and range of stock to be viable. John Stewart had contacted Sarah Woodford and had circulated her reply. She confirmed that her role was to support all businesses in Portobello, that any future campaigns would be aimed at supporting the whole community, and that she wasn’t in a position to comment on the Sainsbury’s proposals.

It may be that a Sainsbury's Local would help to arrest that footfall decline. Certainly the data from respondents to the online survey indicated that the opening of a Sainsbury's Local would encourage them to shop more often and spend more money in Portobello. (See --> http://bit.ly/QgRB5g for summary of survey responses)

[lg1726]

If it was to be so markedly different then the objections would make more sense. Having said that I don't understand why Sainsbury's didn't just go for the Heritage style. Would have saved a lot of bothersome bother, or would it?.....

As I understand it Sainsburys are in discussion with the planning officer and may well propose a change to the more heritage style. Watch this space and maybe the bother is not so bothersome! After all, if no one objected that would have been fine and if there were objections, but they had an alternative to hand, then it could suggest their willingness to take on board local concerns. Maybe a win/win!

[fresian]

Seanie- Point 5, there is no risk of airborne infection from these type of aircon units. These are basically bigger versions of the type found in cars, refrigerators etc. The legionnaires risk comes about when you use condensor cooling tower.

[seanie]

A minor technicality.

THOUSANDS COULD DIE!!!!

[fresian]

They would be more at risk if they ate one of these pre packed Sausage rolls

[bearcub]

UKStationery, I thought you said you wanted to "cut the bull and bluster"?

Older people quivering in their homes because of the noise of folk leaving a shop at 11pm. The genteel people of Portobello shading their eyes from the hideous dark purple frontage when they were so used to Georgian bookies, cafes and charity shops that had never changed for hundreds of years. And of course let's not forget the airborne infections.

Bull and bluster!

You say what do the people of Portobello want, well, many of those people have expressed opinions in this thread. And Geoff has gone to the trouble of helping the PCC out by actually doing a survey. Or is that all bull and bluster too?

[magbagpuss]

Well said Bearcub , more mince on this thread than Sainsburys will ever have . A lot of selfish , self-centred people thinking only of themselves. Get a life. It's a shop not an invasion of body snatchers !

[SoupDragon]

magbagpuss you made me snort my mint tea

[lg1726]

magbagpuss you made me snort my mint tea

I snorted my vodka and cranberry (one of my 5 a day!)

[SoupDragon]

I was in Woodwares today and they said there are no plans to keep part of the store, the whole store is being leased to Sainsbury

[Snow White]

I wonder whether DC and co trundle down to Devon for their holidays?!!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/news ... offee.html

[lg1726]

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/f ... s_licences I see the application for Sainsburys is on the CEC site and that now is the time to lodge supoort, or otherwise. If you want to make comment, there is a proforma as well http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/f ... _objection

The last date for representation is 13 November, but I will be drafting my letter today/tomorrow. I had occasion to call the police twice last week regarding incidents in/around the Quarry Park. Once in connection with the use of an empty nearby property by young people drinking and once when I found a motorcycle abandoned in the play park, a novel new piece of play equipment I thought. Both times I picked up a load of 1/4 & 1/2 bottles of glens vodka and cheap cider and put them in the carrier bags, the blue and white striped ones. Now I know that the arrival of Sainsburys will not stop the kids getting the alcohol; no doubt their current traders will continue to sell to them whether Sainsburys are on the High Street or not, but I feel that it does help to send a message that responsible off sales traders are welcome!

I spoke to the community bobby who told me that they know the kids are being sold and/or passed on alcohol, but that they have no hard evidence to go on! There is no doubt that those opposed to the arrival of Sainburys on our High Street will be objecting on the basis of over provision, but there is a world of difference between the sheer numbers of those off sales and those who have and monitor stringent under age sale policies and in my opinion, better to have those who do take this position and support such establishments!

[geofflynn]

I've added a form to Ask ?orty so anyone can easily make a representation to the Licensing Dept regarding this matter.

Please go here --> http://porty.org.uk/alcohol-licence