Woodwares closing / Sainsburys coming to Portobello

[Mark Cameron]

Right let's set up a stinger operation? You know send in some underage teenagers with hidden cameras and see how they get on in each of the purveyors of booze and make the results avaialble to the police?

I agree, like 90 od percent polled in Geoff Lynn's survey, that another off licence wont be an issue. I do think however that a clamp down on selling to those under 18 is necessary (couldn't we try to promote via Sarah that all Porty traders ask for ID for anyone under 25).

[Chas]

If there are genuine concerns about a Licensed Premises, it might be worth looking at pages 3 & 4 of the guidelines here: http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/info/1126/a ... dinburgh/1

Rather than [illegal] stinger operations, it might be just as effective to let the Licensing Board know.

[lg1726]

There are new procedures which allow for test purchases of alcohol to be made by under age agents in a controlled manner - it was piloted by the previous Labour government, but signed off by our current MSP as Cab Sec for Justice after the 2007 election, so no need for illegal stingers. - http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc ... 053738.pdf
and explained here http://www.alcohol-focus-scotland.org.u ... y-of-terms
but it states -

Test purchasing is where an underage person is sent into premises to attempt to buy age-restricted products. Only the police can authorise test purchasing of alcohol. (Note that Trading Standards carry out test purchasing of items such as cigarettes.)
Normally the police will use test purchasing where there are concerns about a premises selling alcohol to persons under 18 years of age.

I would have thought that given the numerous complaints about the kids drinking etc in various parks and locations in the vicinity that the police are already well aware of the issue, but have not or are not looking at the point of sale for this.

As for over provision -

Overprovision is where there are too many premises in a particular locality.
Licensing Boards must include a statement of overprovision in the Licensing Policy. It is for the Licensing Board to decide how they wish to divide their area into localities. They must also consider the different types of premises in the locality and the size of the those premises.

I would suggest that the current existing premises are all very much of a similar type and size with the exception of Scotmid & Fine Wines and Sainsburys would be compatible with Scotmid i think.

[Mark Cameron]

Sorry the stinger op suggestion was tongue in cheek I just forgot the devilish smiley!

As to the traders signing up to a Porty traders code of conduct re alcohol sales I think that would be useful. Also why don't we email our community councillors and ask that they specifically look at the provision of alcohol to under-agers after all they alredy have a close working relationship with the local police and this would be something they could press for that no one (other than the teenagers!) could have a moan about.

[minnie1957]

'''''The Community Council is here to represent the residents & traders of Portobello. We try to take the majority view about local issues, so please help us to get it right by telling us what you think. We can only deal with what we know about. If you have concerns about a local issue, from uneven pavements to graffiti to Edinburgh's policies on Transport, Planning, Environment or any other matter, contact us or, better still, come to a meeting and tell us about it.''''''

This was the first thing I read when I went online regarding The Community Council. Diane Cairns please take note!!! I have emailed them telling them that as a portobello resident I should be heard and I have no problem with Sainsburys coming to the High Street. In fact I feel that if we stop shops like Sainsburys we are killing off the High Street. Large and small business in Musselburgh High Street manage, in fact most people I know who live outwith Portobello only see us through a bus window as they make thier way to shop in Musselburgh. Cost Cutters are selling items for 2.99 which I can pick up in the pound shop in Musselburgh.

[gillian]

Someone help me out here
The" neutral "stance that the cc took over the school build, was it just for that issue? Will they have to be neutral on this one?
Will they be able to object to Sainsbury's on our behalf? or is it not something they will have control over anyway?

[Pal of Porty]

While the above discussion on alcohol is very pertinent, we need to remember that this topic has only been introduced by the, 'Anti - Everything in Porty including Sainsbury's' brigade, who are grasping at pathetic little straws to try and stop one type of shop legitimately replacing another.

[lg1726]

While the above discussion on alcohol is very pertinent, we need to remember that this topic has only been introduced by the, 'Anti - Everything in Porty including Sainsbury's' brigade, who are grasping at pathetic little straws to try and stop one type of shop legitimately replacing another.

Yes, but this has been jumped on by our local MSP who attended the meeting and has stated that he is minded to object to the application by Sainsburys for an off sales licence on the basis of over provision. Now, when you get a Cabinet Secretary, particularly of justice lodging an objection to the licencing board it does rather suggest that there is considerable merit to this position and that there is local support for such an objecting and that he is representing that support!!

[SoupDragon]

Well if theres over provision maybe they should revoke some of the licenses already granted.

Its an odd argument considering 2 offys closed in the High Street not to mention at least 3 pubs

[Pal of Porty]

Yes, but this has been jumped on by our local MSP who attended the meeting and has stated that he is minded to object to the application by Sainsburys for an off sales licence on the basis of over provision. Now, when you get a Cabinet Secretary, particularly of justice lodging an objection to the licencing board it does rather suggest that there is considerable merit to this position and that there is local support for such an objecting and that he is representing that support!!

I don't disagee with any of your comments and fully accept that there is considerable merit to his position. The only evidence I am aware of to date with regard to his intervention however is getting R S McColl to remove their BOOZE BUSTER sign from their signage as it was felt it gave out the wrong message. Assuming that a corporate entity such as Sainsbury's will have effective systems in place with regard to selling alcohol to minors, it feels rather ironic that a company adhering to this policy may not be allowed to trade due to aforementiond intervention, while alcohol can be obtained by minors from other Portobello outlets.

[lg1726]

Yes, but this has been jumped on by our local MSP who attended the meeting and has stated that he is minded to object to the application by Sainsburys for an off sales licence on the basis of over provision. Now, when you get a Cabinet Secretary, particularly of justice lodging an objection to the licencing board it does rather suggest that there is considerable merit to this position and that there is local support for such an objecting and that he is representing that support!!

I don't disagee with any of your comments and fully accept that there is considerable merit to his position. The only evidence I am aware of to date with regard to his intervention however is getting R S McColl to remove their BOOZE BUSTER sign from their signage as it was felt it gave out the wrong message. Assuming that a corporate entity such as Sainsbury's will have effective systems in place with regard to selling alcohol to minors, it feels rather ironic that a company adhering to this policy may not be allowed to trade due to aforementiond intervention, while alcohol can be obtained by minors from other Portobello outlets.

I have heard that he has advised Alcohol Focus that he will object to the Sainburys application on the grounds of over provision. As you say, this does rather fly in the face of the drive to have responsible alcohol trading, also in the Alcohol Focus guidelines and does rather miss the point about the access to under age sales by many other existing retailers. This issue of over provision would appear to have been raised by the traders and not the residents, who it would seem are more concerned about under age sales!!

[minnie1957]

Sainsburys will follow the code that other large stores do. They are heavily fined and the person on the check out selling cigarettes or alcohol to an underage person is immediately dismissed. Anyone on the checkout that values thier job will not sell unless they see id or if the customer has grey hair.

The chances of stoping Sainsburys selling acohol is a rediculous and futile attempt once again of certain people doing thier utmost to control Portobello and Portobello residents. If these individuals put in the same energy to bring business into the area, as they do trying to stop things happening, we might have a better area to live in. A place where people who do not live in the area will want to visit and shop.

Unfortunately, Portobello, with its many anti brigades, is becoming a bit of a joke, you only have to look at the EEN forum to discover that.

[Mark Cameron]

Yup i've even seen us branded PAEDOs on a forum......

Portobello Against Every Development Opportunity.

Time to change!

[lg1726]

If these individuals put in the same energy to bring business into the area, as they do trying to stop things happening, we might have a better area to live in. A place where people who do not live in the area will want to visit and shop.

I could not agree more! I really have no specific loyalty to Sainsburys and was pleased to hear of their plans to locate here, but became really motivated to get behind them when the anti brigade got onto the cause! Precisely because I do feel that such a protest sends an appalling message about Porty - that it is not open for business, that we do not want to see investments made in our area, that we are a back water place with no motivation to change and progress. How bloody dare they!!!

We have heard masses of clamour by traders and residents alike about regenerating our High Street and when a big name comes along and looks to invest here, the NIMBYs gather and protest. What kind of investment do they want!? The type of shops they want to see will not regenerate the High Street alone, they will not have the resources to and they will not be the type of shops we would all shop in on an everyday basis. That's what Sainsburys offers and as a consequence of that, other speciality shops can locate and get some of the kick back from them.

This whole over provision of alcohol issue is a ploy by the anti brigade, who sadly make up a significant chunk of our community council membership, to scupper Sainsburys because it is a nasty chain, but fails fundamentally to address the bigger picture and is not representative of the views of the majority of the community - sound familiar!!??

[Pal of Porty]

Very familiar.

[regent]

This whole over provision of alcohol issue is a ploy

agreed!

[lg1726]

You know, it is possible for individuals and/or groups to make a submission to the local licencing board in support of an application!!

I plan to look into how to go about this and will consider doing so when the time comes. I really do not want the PCC to claim to speak for me on this - they dont!!

[Mark Cameron]

LG - can you keep us posted on what you uncover. I'd sign up or write my own submission if it's possible. I'll also let the Portydads group know (cos I know how keen they are for a bevvy!)

[lg1726]

mcdryburn - as soon as I get the full legal explanation sorted out I'll put up a post.

Apparently although possible it's quite a complex process. Objections are OK, but submissions of support are considered a tad spurious! As I understand it lobbying the Licensing Board is of itself on an application an offence and so it has to prove that it not a lobbying action! I have asked someone in the know to get me some clear legal advice and will keep you posted! But it can be done within the legal parameters.

LG

[Sceptic]

There is a thread elsewhere through which the number of charity shops and third rate retailers in Portobello High Street. We get a top class retailer wanting to insert an Express, small scale outlet, selling top quality fresh food, groceries and, probably, wines, beers and spirits. rather than welcome them with open arms, we get PAVED (Portobello Against Virtually Every development) stepping in.They against this! What do they want? At least sainsburys will not be selling 3 litres of White Lightning 8% abv "cider" for pennies. They will be selling responsibly.
There again, as it has been said elsewhere, PCC do not represent Portobello, they are manned by two areas residents' associations and self interest groups. Who represents the "ordinary" men and women of Portobello? The PCC do not, that's for sure.

[wangi]

Do something about it - have you ever been to a PCC meeting? There's one on Monday.

[Sceptic]

Wish I could, but do have other committments. Somehow, me going in to this forum, stating some home truths about them would not go down well.
I have had experience of this lot before,"if you are not with us, you must be against us", being called "aTraitor to Portobello" because I would not support their little NIMBY objections.

[Sceptic]

Just for info, Sainsburys have entered a planning application for the shop front and ancillary alterations.
I wonder if there will be objections from you know who?

[wangi]

See:

• 12/03278/FUL: Proposed installation of external plant and machinery to rear
  12/03277/FUL: Proposed alterations to shop front and installation of an ATM
  12/03279/ADV: Erect fascia and projecting signage with (1) Cash machine surround, (2) Entrance door vinyl panel and (3) Lockable poster frame, fixed to central wall face
  12/03280/LBC: Proposed internal works (removal of non-structural walls and stairs and installation of a goods only lift), - alterations to shop front, illuminated and non-illuminated fascia and projecting signage to shop front
  12/03436/LBC: Proposed shop front alterations; installation of ATM; installation of illuminated and non-illuminated signage to shop front; installation of plant; and, various internal alterations to ground and basement floors, including wall/stair removal, wall construction and goods-only lift installation

[bearcub]

Just for info, Sainsburys have entered a planning application for the shop front and ancillary alterations.
I wonder if there will be objections from you know who?

There's already a petition doing the rounds about objecting to the shop-front alterations, along with a leaflet saying where you can object...

[Makaveli]

You are kidding Bearcub?

I think my wife might go potty when I tell her here is another 'no' campaign in Porty!!!

[bearcub]

Unfortunately not, it was in one of the shops near the proposed Sainsburys that might be affected.

[geofflynn]

Sainsbury's Object leaflet

Just collected one of these leaflets from Kost Konscious, as it happens. I was in buying a packet of Monster Munch (other snacks are available). The text reads as follows:

Proposed Sainsbury's Local

Object Now

The proposed alterations will change the High Street forever. Particular concerns are:

• The corporate colours used for the signage are inappropriate in the conservation area.
  
  Noise will be generated from cooling plant.
  
  The Georgian frontage will be destroyed by forming a new door.
  
  The amount of glazing and aluminium frames are inappropriate in the conservation area.
  
  An ATM in this Georgian facad is out of keeping. Another one in Portobello is not needed.

In other parts of the city Sainsbury's have respected the conservation character of the surrounding area. Why should Portobello be different?

Portobello Traders and Hoteliers Association.
Contact: Clive - 669 5032 or 657 4416

Write now to:

John Bury
Head of Planning
Waverley Court
4 East Market Street,
Edinburgh
EH8 8DG

or email: stephen.dickson@edinburgh.gov.uk (include your name and address)

Quoting Applications:
12/03277
12/03278
12/03279
12/03436

for 222-228 Portobello High Street

You need to state that you OBJECT to these proposals and include your reasons why (as overleaf)

Please ensure your objection arrives by 11th October.

[geofflynn]

Existing Woodwares front elevation

Sainsbury's proposed front elevation

[Sceptic]

So blue IS acceptable but maroon is not?
Are there "blue noses" in Portoblello, but no "jambos"?

Joking aside,personally, colour is no reason to object.
The fact that they might just give some shops competition may be the reason why.
If other traders can compete, they will do well, if they can't, well, they can't.

[Puerto bella]

or you may want to write and support along with the hoards of others who support this proposal.

[Puerto bella]

look at the New Town ones and make your own mind up as to what's appropriate in a CA.

[geofflynn]

I've created a form so people can generate a response to send to planners re the Sainsbury's planning applications

Please go here --> http://bit.ly/Rm7mbl

It seems that Portobello Community Council are to object to these plans. I am not aware of any consultation they have undertaken amongst the community in Portobello so it is important that you make your views known to the planning department.

Whether you wish to object, support or merely comment on the plans you can use this form to generate a response and send it on to the planning dept. http://bit.ly/Rm7mbl

It is likely that other Portobello groups will also be objecting. Anyone who is a member of PCATS, Brightons and Rosefield Residents Association, Portobello Amenity Society or PEDAL may wish to enquire as to what representation is being made in their name.

[geofflynn]

admin: split from Portobello Community Council thread.

It seems that Portobello Community Council are to object to the Sainsbury's planning applications for changes to their planned shop at 222-228 High Street.

I am not aware of any consultation they have undertaken amongst the community in Portobello so it is important that you make your views known to the planning department.

Whether you wish to object, support or merely comment on the plans you can use this form to generate a response and send it on to the planning dept. http://bit.ly/Rm7mbl

[Puerto bella]

deja vu