New Portobello High School - PPAG win legal appeal

[Snow White]

the school spends a fortune each year transporting kids by bus to the Jack Kane Centre

And nothing new either. We were bussed up to Niddrie for 'games' in the 1960s before the Jack Kane Centre was even built.

We should not repeat the mistakes of our sixties forefathers. A rebuild or refurb on site would be doing just this.

[seanie]

Rebuild on site has other problem as well.

In 2006, as part of the investigation into possible sites, a feasibility report into decant options was undertaken. Four options were considered, all effectively creating a temporary school, costed at between £4.7m and £5.8. More recently a similar exercise was carried out for Boroughmuir High School, and costs for temporary accommodation for 1150 pupils were estimated at £7m.

The existing site was looked at in the 2006 study and discounted for the following reasons;

“Summary: Although in principle it appears the school can be decanted on the existing site, the result for the time required is far from ideal for a suitable educational environment. The health and safety implications of having a temporary school so close to the building site are obvious, and further investigations on a more progressed scheme are likely to show that exclusion zones are more onerous. For these reasons stated this site has shown itself to be not suitable as an option for decant.”

The existing site plus St John's was considered viable for a decant but even then there were some doubts and the necessity of an off-site decant couldn't be discounted. And of course St John's don't want to move, and if they were to move it would take 4-5 years so a new PHS would be 7-8 years away.

[Porty]

When was the Jack Kane Centre built? I went to Porty in 1971 (I think) and I can remember being bussed to Meadowbank (which was new and exciting, although you lost loads of class time) and to Cavalry Park but not JKC.

Early 1970s.It's 90 acres.

[seashell]

When was porty the biggest school in Europe?
I know it's oft-quoted, but can't find any sources. And what was the roll at the time?
For reference, GWC was the largest school in Scotland in 1974, with a roll of over 2400 (Guinness Book of Records).

[seanie]

Update from PFANS.

PFANS position statement (2).pdf

(458.81 KiB) Downloaded 827 times

[Sceptic]

Cannot remember exactly when Jack Kane built, posible late 60s. Do remember playing Rugby against Portobello at Hunter's Bog. We changed in Niddrie Mill Primary, crossed the road and walked through the trees to where the pitches were, that was mid 60s. Cavalry Park was not built until early 70s, if my memory serves me correctly.

Portobello peaked at a roll of about 2000,which still used the old Annexe.

[seashell]

in 1974 GWC still used the George Square buildings for the girls. The playing fields were all the way up at Double Hedges Road in LIberton, and although buses were laid on for primary 6 and 7 pupils, senior girls had to make their own way there

[Pal of Porty]

Portobello peaked at a roll of about 2000,which still used the old Annexe.

The school roll was actually several hundred higher when it appeared in the Guiness Book of Records as the largest school in the UK (or possibly Europe).

[Sceptic]

Watson's Ladies College was a separate entity then. That is why they did not play games at Myreside. When the pavilion burned down, Liberton FP used the pitches until housing was built on it.

[Porty]

I reckon the school role peaked at 2600 in 74/75. The annexe, in park avenue, accomodated about 650 of those. In 1971, which was my first year., there was 16 classes with at least 32 kids in each class. PHS appeared in the Guinness book as largest in Europe.

[Porty]

Cannot remember exactly when Jack Kane built, posible late 60s. Do remember playing Rugby against Portobello at Hunter's Bog..

OMG - I thought Hunters Bog was a vallley at Arthur Seat!! At rugby training for Porty, we used to run up the steps near the Sheepy (nightmare) and I thought what we did next was run through Hunters Bog, which was very rough terrain.

[Sceptic]

It was Hunter's something, it might not have been Bog, it was soft enough to be a bog. Anyway, we went over the football pitches, throug the trees and the rugby pitches were there.

[rathbone]

It was Hunter's something

It was called Hunter's Hall. We used to get changed at Niddrie primary as well. Across the road from the primary there was a gap in the wall around what was then the grounds of Wauchope House. The gap gave access to a large playing field with a running track. That is where the Jack Kane Centre was later built. The edge of the playing field was a tree lined track which led up to The Wisp. Beyond that track was another field with football and rugby pitches.

[seashell]

Watson's Ladies College was a separate entity then. That is why they did not play games at Myreside. When the pavilion burned down, Liberton FP used the pitches until housing was built on it.

Indeed it was. Double Hedges was very windswept and trying to play netball up there in a glae was almost impossible. GWLC merged with GWC in 1974. Ist of October, I think, which is why the school roll suddenly appeared so huge. As our music teacher, Miss Cavaye (well known in the Porty area) siad prior tothe merge: "Now girls, when you get to Colinton Road, you will sing "Ah-men" in an entirely different way!"

Like I said, at 2400 in 1974, GWC was in the Guiness Book of World Records as the biggest school in Scotland. Can't find any ref. to PHS (excep anecdotally) being biggest school in Europe in 74 or 75 with 200 more pupils. Can anyone help or is this just one of those urban myths?

[Porty]

I'm sure its true but I could be out on the year, I remember reading it in the GBoWR. I don't know if those who had to repeat a year or two were counted in the overall total, Scoop?

[Sceptic]

Ah, Rathbone, the fountain of knowledge!

[neilking]

Councillor’s Report
September 2012

Maureen Child, Labour Councillor for Portobello/Craigmillar

Portobello High School Judgement
... First, they all heard a very clear summary of the legal background from Andy Wightman who has done a huge amount of research in Common Good. Andy has advised both sides of this argument and will also advise the Council. ...

Andy Wightman has confirmed on his website that he is NOT advising the Council.

[Epykat]

Councillor’s Report
September 2012

Maureen Child, Labour Councillor for Portobello/Craigmillar

Portobello High School Judgement
... First, they all heard a very clear summary of the legal background from Andy Wightman who has done a huge amount of research in Common Good. Andy has advised both sides of this argument and will also advise the Council. ...

Andy Wightman has confirmed on his website that he is NOT advising the Council.

Bet Andy Wightman's wishing he'd never got involved

[Porty]

Andy Wightman has confirmed on his website that he is NOT advising the Council.

You gave him a bit of a going over!!

He may not be advsing the council directly but you can bet your bottom dollar they are taking note. In case he spots something they missed.

[seanie]

A comparison between the existing site and the park site.

[seanie]

And if anyone tells you that the proposed school only has one additional all-weather pitch, so it's not a significant improvement, bear in mind the size of the pitch they have at present.

[Doris]

This from Save Porty Park fb page

The option appraisal commissioned by the council in 2006, ruling out most of the alternative sites contained some serious errors and inconsistencies. Prior to the planning application for Portobello Park, msp Kenny MacAskill asked council colleagues to review the process, but they refused to do so.
Our concern is that the appraisal was carried out with a predetermined outcome. The council had alre
ady cleared stated that the plan was to build on Porty Park. They even produced glossy promotional leaflets detailing their plan. The feasibility study was constructed to support that outcome.
Let's hope they don't make the same mistake again. The option appraisal must be open minded, factually accurate and challenging. New and imaginative solutions should be sought. There is no point just rehashing the previous one.

[seanie]

Also bear in mind that the current St John's site, at 0.66 Ha, is less than half the minimum statutory size for a two stream school and nursery (1.4 Ha).

[seanie]

This from Save Porty Park fb page

The option appraisal commissioned by the council in 2006, ruling out most of the alternative sites contained some serious errors and inconsistencies. Prior to the planning application for Portobello Park, msp Kenny MacAskill asked council colleagues to review the process, but they refused to do so.
Our concern is that the appraisal was carried out with a predetermined outcome. The council had alre
ady cleared stated that the plan was to build on Porty Park. They even produced glossy promotional leaflets detailing their plan. The feasibility study was constructed to support that outcome.
Let's hope they don't make the same mistake again. The option appraisal must be open minded, factually accurate and challenging. New and imaginative solutions should be sought. There is no point just rehashing the previous one.

The statutory consultation that lead to the selection of Portobello Park as the preferred site was signed off by the Scottish Government back in 2007. And prior to the planning application the site option study was updated to review the selection criteria, the updated report being submitted as part of the application.

[Porty]

The battle about the desirability of the park is over. It has been for a number of years. The only thing preventing the school being built is a poorly worded law. Which can hopefully be fixed quickly .

[David Robertson]

The battle about the desirability of the park is over. It has been for a number of years. The only thing preventing the school being built is a poorly worded law. Which can hopefully be fixed quickly .

Spot on in my opinion.

[regent]

The battle about the desirability of the park is over. It has been for a number of years. The only thing preventing the school being built is a poorly worded law. Which can hopefully be fixed quickly .

If there is a decision that the park is not common good, can this be appealed?

[David Robertson]

The battle about the desirability of the park is over. It has been for a number of years. The only thing preventing the school being built is a poorly worded law. Which can hopefully be fixed quickly .

If there is a decision that the park is not common good, can this be appealed?

Hopefully the lawyers on here will answer but my opinion is that the ruling is irrelevant if that is not Common Ground.

[regent]

i mean if the council say that it is not common good will this decision be appealed in some way? It seems having read the articles posted that the council bought the land at a time when it had statutory powers to do so. What seems a bit unclear is whether it used those statutory powers to buy the land or just came to an arrangement to take ownership on a voluntary sale basis with the condition that it was not built on.
Seems to me that lawyers etc will be able to interpret the information in different ways and my concern is that this could all end up in court for many years.

[seanie]

If the status was to be tested, you'd do it in the Inner Court so that there was only one possible further stage of appeal, and that wouldn't be an automatic entitlement. The problem might be less timescales and more uncertainty of outcome. Whether or not the land is Common Good comes down to the circumstance of it's acquisition, so the recent court case should be irrelevant to that. But would the Inner House be able to look at it without the recent ruling influencing them? Not sure how much confidence I'd have in that.

[portygeoff]

Why go through the Common Ground issue, a Bill through Parliament will ensure that the will of the majority of Portobello is carried out. Wasted too much time already.

[David Robertson]

Why go through the Common Ground issue, a Bill through Parliament will ensure that the will of the majority of Portobello is carried out. Wasted too much time already.

My thoughts exactly !

[regent]

Who raises this in the parliament and what is a realistic timescale?

[seanie]

There could be more than one route via Holyrood, but I'm told a Private Bill could take less than 9 months with sufficient support. Of course different avenues aren't mutually exclusive, more than one can be pursued simultaneously.

[regent]

That is quick. Who raises it though?